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osu! World Cup 2015 - Discussion Thread 321t3f
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, ok no 
Hype hype
A little sheet with all the big tournaments and the maps they used.
EDIT: I also started map pick/ban tables again
A little sheet with all the big tournaments and the maps they used.
EDIT: I also started map pick/ban tables again
While I do understand the change and agree that this will definitely be an improvement to the viewing experience, I don't like it at all. The reason scoring is very combo heavy is because the hardest aspect of the game is supposed to get rewarded the most. For example, in osu!mania combo doesn't do anything at all because you could literally just spam all your buttons and still keep combo, while not paying ANY attention to rhythm, while in standard reading might as well be the single most important skill in the game. I do understand that a "random miss" on a map you performed extremely well on can ruin the whole score, but being able to stay focused while playing is IMO the most difficult aspect of the game.Bauxe wrote: l5c1p
I don't get why people are confused about the change to the scoring system, it is probably the most requested thing relating to OWC.
Then again, I might be biased since my own playstyle and the way I read sacrifices accuracy in order to maintain stable aim and combo. And also they haven't released any specific information on how scoring will work yet, so it might not be as tremendous as I am anticipating it.
For now it's probably still okay. It sucks, so it's something that hopefully doesn't happen next year (since last owc we also had the problem of not knowing some things in advance, which resulted in everything being blown out of proportions last year too). The best would be if you could get these things finalized before the registrations end though. Those who should be able to expect the rules to be what they for, so yeah.Loctav wrote: 5b1v22
it's still in heavy testing, hence why I gave you a rough tendency where it will go. I am sorry that we were unable to deliver concrete details sooner.CXu wrote: 344051
Would be nice to know that before g up to a tournament though, you know
Anyhow, good luck with testing and finalizing these things~
Thanks for the input! We will consider this option internally and figure something out, if we deem this as feasable.StarrStyx wrote: 55366
I dont know if it's appropriate to do so, but I somehow think that for one or two matches, some streamers or well known osu commentators on Twitch can be asked to commentate on a match or two.
Just to bring some freshness to the streams imo, apart from the usual ones
I absolutely agree and I tried my best to whip the devs harder, but it wasnt possible to release the complete thing just in time. I actually wanted it to be done and dandy right before we open the s, but this was out of my reach hahaCXu wrote: 344051
For now it's probably still okay. It sucks, so it's something that hopefully doesn't happen next year (since last owc we also had the problem of not knowing some things in advance, which resulted in everything being blown out of proportions last year too). The best would be if you could get these things finalized before the registrations end though. Those who should be able to expect the rules to be what they for, so yeah.
I just hope that this scoring system won't be as bad as mania's. Indeed, I honestly feel like it's the worst for tourneys, why?
Because you cant make advantages of players' consistency in of comboeing (not sure about the correct word to use there). Before, in team based tourneys there have been a lots of tight match that has been disputed throughout maps because people had combos while other had not. I honestly feel like consistency is what people want to see, they want amazing combos more than "amazing accuracy" which is not relevant on long songs.. holding combos is harder in tournament than holding accuracy IN MY OPINION.
Well, i think i am pretty confused in what i say, but if it appears to be close to mania's score system, then i highly disagree with your choices.
Because you cant make advantages of players' consistency in of comboeing (not sure about the correct word to use there). Before, in team based tourneys there have been a lots of tight match that has been disputed throughout maps because people had combos while other had not. I honestly feel like consistency is what people want to see, they want amazing combos more than "amazing accuracy" which is not relevant on long songs.. holding combos is harder in tournament than holding accuracy IN MY OPINION.
Well, i think i am pretty confused in what i say, but if it appears to be close to mania's score system, then i highly disagree with your choices.
As we stated here: https://twitter.com/ppy/status/649599477586636800Musty wrote: 683r6m
I just hope that this scoring system won't be as bad as mania's. Indeed, I honestly feel like it's the worst for tourneys, why?
Because you cant make advantages of players' consistency in of comboeing (not sure about the correct word to use there). Before, in team based tourneys there have been a lots of tight match that has been disputed throughout maps because people had combos while other had not. I honestly feel like consistency is what people want to see, they want amazing combos more than "amazing accuracy" which is not relevant on long songs.. holding combos is harder in tournament than holding accuracy IN MY OPINION.
Well, i think i am pretty confused in what i say, but if it appears to be close to mania's score system, then i highly disagree with your choices.
It won't be like mania. In mania, combo does not matter at all. We do not plan that. Rather, we just want to take away the weightening of combo >> all. Combo will have a significant impact, but it won't be exponentially outgrowing the score, so even if your accuracy is shit, you will be like miles ahead of people who just missed once. However, combo will definitely matter, we just adjust the balance between how heavy Combo impacts the score and how you can compensate singular drops by accuracy instead.
Bit of a harsh thing to say to the person who did the majority of the commentating of the last few years, is it not?Loctav wrote: 5b1v22
We didn't need you for past 3 world cups. So, no. You can resume playing steam games now.Mr Color wrote: 2r8t
Well, I take it you have enough people that you don't need me anymore then, godspeed o\
Still, looking forward to this year! Will we be getting any pro players commentating like last year? That would be good.
Wtf is this thing about Color, he was actually the best commentator with at least some knowledge about the standard players for all past tournaments.
Btw, you should consider taking in some new commentators. People like Evrien, lolimonz, Doomsday and others were really great during the All-Star tournament that took place not long time ago and could bring some great quality into this tournament as well.
Btw, you should consider taking in some new commentators. People like Evrien, lolimonz, Doomsday and others were really great during the All-Star tournament that took place not long time ago and could bring some great quality into this tournament as well.
fartownik wrote: 3l1h
Wtf is this thing about Color, he was actually the best commentator with at least some knowledge about the standard players for all past tournaments.
Btw, you should consider taking in some new commentators. People like Evrien, lolimonz, Doomsday and others were really great during the All-Star tournament that took place not long time ago and could bring some great quality into this tournament as well.
ztrot is making the final calls here. Make them him to sort it out.
Like I said, ask ztrotAmaiHachimitsu wrote: 5k2c5k
Probably PP-oriented system.Loctav wrote: 5b1v22
You should wait until we actually release how the scoring works before you make assumptions about it.
While it could be kind of "fair", it would ruin the viewing experience.
Also
Like, seriously, can I commentate too?
Winner wrote: 532i1v
I think it's a bit too late for that. Would have to wipe all scores on leaderboards or make an entirely new leaderboard.Decon082 wrote: 5v6e6n
now implement this scoring system for non-tournament scenarios in standard and ctb please
At least the new system will reflect skill a lot more.
Anyways, the USA bois better bring it home <3
I wouldn't mind that at all. It would give me an excuse to play some of my favorite maps again to solidify my fundamentals. Not to mention I'll capitalize on the player base rage quitting because I'm so anti-meta.Winner wrote: 532i1v
I think it's a bit too late for that. Would have to wipe all scores on leaderboards or make an entirely new leaderboard.Decon082 wrote: 5v6e6n
now implement this scoring system for non-tournament scenarios in standard and ctb please
Probably because the team isn't exactly being pre-picked by the country. Since all registrations are individual, they probably want to pick someone who they don't think will choose teammates based on personal bias (ie. picking friends over better players).Xilver wrote: 1l325z
May I please ask for the logic behind captains being selected by the management team and not by the team itself? Not trying to start anything, I just don't particularly agree with that decision and I'd like to hear your line of reasoning behind it.
Even if it's a temporary pick, I'm assuming the reason you pick the captain is for the captain to choose a team, right?
Maybe I'm completely wrong though.
edit: also the country-picked captain might not be able to play which would cause confusion (since no more captain).
Speaking of which, does the temporary captain have to end up in the team? If a country has decided (in their forum section or channel or tournament etc.) whom to select for their team, and the captain chosen isn't among any of them, would this temporary captain be able to pick the 8 players and then not participate themselves?Bauxe wrote: l5c1p
Probably because the team isn't exactly being pre-picked by the country. Since all registrations are individual, they probably want to pick someone who they don't think will choose teammates based on personal bias (ie. picking friends over better players).Xilver wrote: 1l325z
May I please ask for the logic behind captains being selected by the management team and not by the team itself? Not trying to start anything, I just don't particularly agree with that decision and I'd like to hear your line of reasoning behind it.
Even if it's a temporary pick, I'm assuming the reason you pick the captain is for the captain to choose a team, right?
Maybe I'm completely wrong though.
edit: also the country-picked captain might not be able to play which would cause confusion (since no more captain).
Just wanna say good luck to the management team and thanks for putting effort in revolutionizing the tournament structure. Hope all goes well! I however would like to show some concern for the $5,000 prize pool since it's quite big...really. All-Star promised a $500 one and that was already considered grand-scale. Why $5,000 if I may ask?
https://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/wiki/Help_CenterKevEz wrote: 6x11r
Just want to clarify something, if i have proof that i am from Mexico does that make me eligable at all to play for the Mexican team or do i have to try to play for the country i reside in?
Based off of what I'm looking at, it is proof of residency. So if you really are from Mexico, that would mean that you could technically play for Mexico, provided you own a home there and you have a Mexican ID.
Hong Kong hype!Makan1 wrote: 3l554
lets not see a repeat of last year yeah....
hong kong pls no disappoint this year lol
But no SiLviZ ;W;
Didn't osu become an esport? No?Evrien wrote: 2t4lr
Just wanna say good luck to the management team and thanks for putting effort in revolutionizing the tournament structure. Hope all goes well! I however would like to show some concern for the $5,000 prize pool since it's quite big...really. All-Star promised a $500 one and that was already considered grand-scale. Why $5,000 if I may ask?
*takes my leave*
OWC is on a completely different level to All-Star. Pretty sure most of the All-Star games only got a few hundred viewers, OWC gets easily into the thousands (I think it even went above 10,000 in the grand final last year?).Evrien wrote: 2t4lr
Just wanna say good luck to the management team and thanks for putting effort in revolutionizing the tournament structure. Hope all goes well! I however would like to show some concern for the $5,000 prize pool since it's quite big...really. All-Star promised a $500 one and that was already considered grand-scale. Why $5,000 if I may ask?
We topped at 13k, if I'm ing correctly.Bauxe wrote: l5c1p
OWC is on a completely different level to All-Star. Pretty sure most of the All-Star games only got a few hundred viewers, OWC gets easily into the thousands (I think it even went above 10,000 in the grand final last year?).Evrien wrote: 2t4lr
Just wanna say good luck to the management team and thanks for putting effort in revolutionizing the tournament structure. Hope all goes well! I however would like to show some concern for the $5,000 prize pool since it's quite big...really. All-Star promised a $500 one and that was already considered grand-scale. Why $5,000 if I may ask?
Captains are a sole communication medium.
Captains do not need to end up in the team ultimatively, neither do they have to be present at every match. If our declared captain does want to play, they can pick 8 different players and declare a different captain.
Considering that in the past, all teams were created in a community consensus by figuring out together who will be in the team, we trust in the same mechanic here. Even if the captain delivers us the final player list and received the candidate list, most of them will decide by asking around instead of picking from their guts. Many will open a discussion publicly and make it a group decision as it always was. The only remnant is that the declared captain is our messenger.
We had several issues in particular communities being super bitchy about who is the captain, who gets in the team, even forming two parallel teams and I had to decide who ends up in the cup. This is bullshit and pointless drama. (Right Ryosuke-? You were causing this bullcrap in last year)
Declaring captains as messenger and (in some cases) final call makers, we can avoid any sort of needless team creation drama and make everything run smoothly and fair. We always aim to pick captains that are reasonable, accessible and totally not focused on their circle jerk only. Being captain in the past without issues promotes you for the position, but does not guarantee it. The choices of captains will land on people that we consider to make the most fair and organized decision.
The individual registrations allow us to do the rule violation checks without crushing team rosters over and over again. We can avoid the entire hassle and move the team creation AFTER everyone was filtered. This avoids the 500 times of "I fixed my roster, here is the new". With this new approach, you can only pick from the candidates list and your team will be safe to be created in any case.
Moreover it allows countries to form teams that would otherwise never be able to create a team, because they are unaware of each other. We had potential teams of Mongolia, Israel, Venezuela, Vietnam and other places in the previous world cups.
Ah yeah, the only downside is, when less than 8 people the filters for a country. Usually the countries are weaker and maybe don't end up in the last 32, but sometimes they do. Then all players just get mocked up in one team and we declare a captain, but as always, they can switch around this position as they want. If you have less than 8 people in your country validly ing, there is not much to choose from a list...
OWC Grand Finals peaked in Twitch at #5 most viewed worldwide across all games and peaked momentarily to 16-20,000 viewers, having over 150 000 unique viewers across the entire tournament. (I should recheck that, I don't have the numbers in mind anymore)
Captains do not need to end up in the team ultimatively, neither do they have to be present at every match. If our declared captain does want to play, they can pick 8 different players and declare a different captain.
Considering that in the past, all teams were created in a community consensus by figuring out together who will be in the team, we trust in the same mechanic here. Even if the captain delivers us the final player list and received the candidate list, most of them will decide by asking around instead of picking from their guts. Many will open a discussion publicly and make it a group decision as it always was. The only remnant is that the declared captain is our messenger.
We had several issues in particular communities being super bitchy about who is the captain, who gets in the team, even forming two parallel teams and I had to decide who ends up in the cup. This is bullshit and pointless drama. (Right Ryosuke-? You were causing this bullcrap in last year)
Declaring captains as messenger and (in some cases) final call makers, we can avoid any sort of needless team creation drama and make everything run smoothly and fair. We always aim to pick captains that are reasonable, accessible and totally not focused on their circle jerk only. Being captain in the past without issues promotes you for the position, but does not guarantee it. The choices of captains will land on people that we consider to make the most fair and organized decision.
The individual registrations allow us to do the rule violation checks without crushing team rosters over and over again. We can avoid the entire hassle and move the team creation AFTER everyone was filtered. This avoids the 500 times of "I fixed my roster, here is the new". With this new approach, you can only pick from the candidates list and your team will be safe to be created in any case.
Moreover it allows countries to form teams that would otherwise never be able to create a team, because they are unaware of each other. We had potential teams of Mongolia, Israel, Venezuela, Vietnam and other places in the previous world cups.
Ah yeah, the only downside is, when less than 8 people the filters for a country. Usually the countries are weaker and maybe don't end up in the last 32, but sometimes they do. Then all players just get mocked up in one team and we declare a captain, but as always, they can switch around this position as they want. If you have less than 8 people in your country validly ing, there is not much to choose from a list...
OWC Grand Finals peaked in Twitch at #5 most viewed worldwide across all games and peaked momentarily to 16-20,000 viewers, having over 150 000 unique viewers across the entire tournament. (I should recheck that, I don't have the numbers in mind anymore)
Well I think CTB works well with both Combo-dominated and Accuracy-dominated scoring system D: Since a droplet is worth as much accuracy as an actual fruit combo, it's not fair for people who caught the combos in rhythm and lose some droplets due to control issue and get penalised equally as someone who lost rhythm and caught the droplets, that kind of defeats the purpose of a rhythm game. But on the flip side, people take accuracy in CTB for granted since literally a it has the least score value of only 10, thus many players can just blatantly ignore droplets all they want, they can miss a thousand droplets and have one combo more and still be ahead than another player with no droplet misses but 1 combo less, that's like in Osu!Standard , a 1000 combo map FC'ed with 1000 50s would still weigh millions ahead of a 999 combo of 300s with a miss at the end, accuracy shouldn't be disregarded as the least important factor in any game mode, also not to mention on maps like Yoiyami Hanabi SS is a whole lot better than S and should be awarded as accordingly when people are skilled enough to catch all the little things.Decon082 wrote: 5v6e6n
now implement this scoring system for non-tournament scenarios in standard and ctb please
My long wall of text opinion as always D:
I have an idea about the Accuracy VS Combo weightage adjustment!! How about we have some formular that goes similarly to:
(Percentage Accuracy)^20 x Map Score x SS Bonus (1.06 times score multiplier) = Final Score
E.g. Team A = Players 1 to 4 Team B = Players 5 to 8
Player 1:
Map Score: 10,000,000 (no miss + a few 100s)
Accuracy: 98.32% (98.32%^20 = 0.71258618367)
Final Score: 7,125,862
Player 2:
Map Score: 10,170,871 (SS)
Accuracy: 100.00% (x1.06)
Final Score: 10,781,123
Player 3:
Map Score: 9,758,951 (no miss + full of 100s & 50s B rank)
Accuracy: 95.95% (95.95%^20 = 0.43742095198)
Final Score: 4,268,770
Player 4: (Disconnected)
Map Score: 0
Accuracy: 0.00%
Final Score: 0
Team A Total Score: 22,176,755
Player 5:
Map Score: 10,156,632 (no miss + 1 less 100 than Player 1)
Accuracy: 98.55% (98.55%^20 = 0.74667665341)
Final Score: 7,583,720
Player 6:
Map Score: 7,900,000 (1x miss + all 300s)
Accuracy: 99.86% (99.86%^20 = 0.97236929036)
Final Score: 7,681,717
Player 7:
Map Score: 7,900,000 (1x miss + all 300s)
Accuracy: 99.86% (99.86%^20 = 0.97236929036)
Final Score: 7,681,717
Player 8: (Failed)
Map Score: 0
Accuracy: 0.00%
Final Score: 0
Team B Total Score: 22,947,154
Team B wins the map by 770,399 points \o/ (3.47% more score than Team A)
The numerical values of the multipliers and exponents and even the format & functions etc are not fixed XD They are just random examples of how having a formular that evens out the Combo VS Accuracy power struggle can make the matches themselves and their end results contain more suspense and anticipation, thus more exciting and unexpected :3
(Percentage Accuracy)^20 x Map Score x SS Bonus (1.06 times score multiplier) = Final Score
E.g. Team A = Players 1 to 4 Team B = Players 5 to 8
Player 1:
Map Score: 10,000,000 (no miss + a few 100s)
Accuracy: 98.32% (98.32%^20 = 0.71258618367)
Final Score: 7,125,862
Player 2:
Map Score: 10,170,871 (SS)
Accuracy: 100.00% (x1.06)
Final Score: 10,781,123
Player 3:
Map Score: 9,758,951 (no miss + full of 100s & 50s B rank)
Accuracy: 95.95% (95.95%^20 = 0.43742095198)
Final Score: 4,268,770
Player 4: (Disconnected)
Map Score: 0
Accuracy: 0.00%
Final Score: 0
Team A Total Score: 22,176,755
Player 5:
Map Score: 10,156,632 (no miss + 1 less 100 than Player 1)
Accuracy: 98.55% (98.55%^20 = 0.74667665341)
Final Score: 7,583,720
Player 6:
Map Score: 7,900,000 (1x miss + all 300s)
Accuracy: 99.86% (99.86%^20 = 0.97236929036)
Final Score: 7,681,717
Player 7:
Map Score: 7,900,000 (1x miss + all 300s)
Accuracy: 99.86% (99.86%^20 = 0.97236929036)
Final Score: 7,681,717
Player 8: (Failed)
Map Score: 0
Accuracy: 0.00%
Final Score: 0
Team B Total Score: 22,947,154
Team B wins the map by 770,399 points \o/ (3.47% more score than Team A)
The numerical values of the multipliers and exponents and even the format & functions etc are not fixed XD They are just random examples of how having a formular that evens out the Combo VS Accuracy power struggle can make the matches themselves and their end results contain more suspense and anticipation, thus more exciting and unexpected :3
No... just no....
Giving a bonus for a SS is stupid and a changing map score that isn't defined until the end is also kinda unnecessary.
That also doesn't take combo into and the drop from low acc is too huge. A 80% score fc would mean nothing, you could get a 99% with tons of misses and you would get a score that's over 70 times bigger than the 80% fc (that's an extreme case that is not likely to happen but still...)
Giving a bonus for a SS is stupid and a changing map score that isn't defined until the end is also kinda unnecessary.
That also doesn't take combo into and the drop from low acc is too huge. A 80% score fc would mean nothing, you could get a 99% with tons of misses and you would get a score that's over 70 times bigger than the 80% fc (that's an extreme case that is not likely to happen but still...)
We just suggested some people that could do some good work here. I'm pretty sure none of the commentators involved here followed the All-Star tournament that I was talking about and noticed that you could use some of them as they're not just good at commentating live events during the game, but also have some good knowledge of players, maps and game mechanics in general. This tournament lacks casters like this.
Firstly I don't understand what you meant by "changing map score that isn't defined until the end", my intent is to precisely tell that we should modifyr the score after the map is already over, could you re-phrase your point?tfg50 wrote: 4s1w4p
No... just no....
Giving a bonus for a SS is stupid and a changing map score that isn't defined until the end is also kinda unnecessary.
That also doesn't take combo into and the drop from low acc is too huge. A 80% score fc would mean nothing, you could get a 99% with tons of misses and you would get a score that's over 70 times bigger than the 80% fc (that's an extreme case that is not likely to happen but still...)
Secondly 80% accuracy in Standard is actually pretty bad :C And in all honesty especially in a tournament scenario if one's accuracy falls below 95% I can simply conclude generally that he/she is either not skilled enough at that stage or not able to practise the map diligently, and thus shall not rightfully emerge victorious. That's the philosophical cornerstone of the concept of competition in the first place.
Thirly Osu! as a rhythm game, where the rhythm element is measured by rate of accuracy and the game element is measured by proficiency in movement/reaction (AKA get combo), it makes little sense to weigh one above another, therefore I see the validity in the managements' decision to pull up the importance of accuracy even though players are used to being obsessed with combos and are reluctant to accept this change however reasonable.
Last but not least back to my own point in my previous post, I would like to clarify once more that I've stated CLEARLY in bold that all numerical values and functions are just EXAMPLES for illustration purposes only, to help readers understand through usage of analogies about how a score formular helps to balance out the issues with combo and accuracy, and how the multipliers and exponents stated above are NOT FINALISED or NON-NEGOTIABLE or even necessary in the first place
My intent is to present the idea of formulars, not to get nitty-gritty with the technicality of the values involved. If you wish to argue that formulars are bad ideas, please stay on point on why formulars are bad. Anyway just to add on, everything in Osu! is pretty much calculated by formulars, like scores, accuracy, pp, even the basic model of 50% acc 50% combo is also a formular, but just too simplistic in my opinion to work fairly, which is why I suggested a more complex formular. To me there are only 2 ways to go about this: One is to stick with the old model of score wins and score only, or two get a good enough formular that makes thing fair and fun for the most, it's really that simple D: