I agree. Requiring at least 2 diffs is perfectly reasonable, thats what sets apart a marathon from a reasonable spread.
Mun wrote: 4v406
My main concern is that when we have challenging Hard or Insane difficulties, will these be at risk of being blocked from the ranked section due to the challenge they provide? As a side-effect of this, won't we just see people making sets that go one diff lower than the minimum required in order to have an acceptable lower diff, defeating the purpose of this amendment altogether?
then I think it's entirely reasonable to require a normal or more appropriately mapped Hard. Star Rating is so broken that it should really not be used as the sole judge of whether something constitutes a reasonable spread, the difficulty-specific criteria exist for a reason and if there's concern about elements found in Hards that are not appropriate for players at that level, imo it would belong there rather than having anything to do with this proposal. Basically, if it's mapped like a Hard according to RC, it should count as a Hard, if it's mapped like an Insane, make another diff.proposal wrote: b175q
Single-mode mapsets must form a reasonable spread. This spread must comply with its respective mode's difficulty-specific Ranking Criteria.
Mun wrote: 4v406
In response to oko:
I was afraid of this coming up. If it is required that a spread be "reasonable" (not clearly defined) and linear even in sections where the spread is not required at all, then we run the risk of depriving the game of content, because in this case it is possible that a mapset would be completely acceptable and rankable without a low diff, but then have spread problems when that low diff is added.
Mun wrote: 4v406
Now, I'm sure you are already fully aware of my relationship with reasonable spreads, but I genuinely think it would be counterproductive to strictly enforce spread rules on low difficulties that are not required at all in the context of the mapset.
Mun wrote: 4v406
On another note, I am also concerned at the challenge of, "what constitutes an acceptable bottom diff?" As it stands, many Normal difficulties are viewed as unacceptable as the lowest difficulty on a set not because of their star rating, but because of density and difficulty elements present in the map.
My main concern is that when we have challenging Hard or Insane difficulties, will these be at risk of being blocked from the ranked section due to the challenge they provide? As a side-effect of this, won't we just see people making sets that go one diff lower than the minimum required in order to have an acceptable lower diff, defeating the purpose of this amendment altogether?
Okoratu wrote: ct57
Mun wrote: 4v406
On another note, I am also concerned at the challenge of, "what constitutes an acceptable bottom diff?" As it stands, many Normal difficulties are viewed as unacceptable as the lowest difficulty on a set not because of their star rating, but because of density and difficulty elements present in the map.
My main concern is that when we have challenging Hard or Insane difficulties, will these be at risk of being blocked from the ranked section due to the challenge they provide? As a side-effect of this, won't we just see people making sets that go one diff lower than the minimum required in order to have an acceptable lower diff, defeating the purpose of this amendment altogether?
That was on my agenda for all the modes already - we will need to define what and if we need additional guidelines the same way we have them for normals as the lowest difficulty right now because i think these work.
@LwL there's a definition of the term reasonable spread in the glossary which probably explains whatever you were suggesting already
If the drain time of a song is lower than 3:30, the lowest difficulty of each included game mode cannot be harder than a Normal.
Difficulties lower than Insane can use their play time as a metric instead of drain time, but their drain time must be equal to at least 80% of their play time.
UndeadCapulet wrote: 1t2uc
- if the drain time is 4:15 - 5min your set's lowest diff must be insane or lower
A lot of things wrong with this comment. //Stupidity and laziness level intensifies// (I am merely quoting an ex-QAT).Kurokami wrote: 3j5016
Stupidity and laziness level intensifies
While I do agree with the question at hand I do not get why there is no need for a middle ground (Hard) level above 4:15. You are technically closing out a huge number of players with this step since no one will ever map a Hard if a standalone Insane is enough. We are talking about 30-50k people whose will be able to play these maps while the rest has to skip them because of the unreachable difficulty level.UndeadCapulet wrote: 1t2uc
- if the drain time is 4:15 - 5min your set's lowest diff must be insane or lower
I would lower the requirement to Hard. That is a far more acceptable difficulty level and can actually reach over 100k people which is double the size of the current number.
Oh, I know! No idea how to word it but as an example: the Hard difficulty to be the lowest one in the set should be as easy as Oko's Normal (that actually is and works as an Advanced/a Hard): https://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/beatmapsets/450762#osu/1629268Okoratu wrote: ct57
we need to define how easy we expect a hard to be rather than taking sets down for it so that we're all on the same page
Avoid long chains of active hit objects with 1/2 gaps. Too many consecutive clicks can be exhausting for new players. - in my experience most hard diffs of decently fast songs do this already anyway so it shouldn't be an issue, and would ensure playability
avoid switching between 1/1, 1/2 and 1/4 stacks repeatedly. This may cause reading issues for new players, since two different rhythms are visually the same. - especially if someone is already challenged by the general speed of a map, having to switch up the rhythm on visually similar patterns can be hard
Avoid frequent streams made of more than 5 notes. Short reversing sliders can be used in exchange for these when the song s it. - stamina is an issue, and while a single longer stream is just a problem on that stream, having many of them can make the entire map frustrating
Ranking Criteria wrote: j1xb
Difficulties lower than the hardest difficulty of a beatmapset can use their play time as a metric instead of drain time, but their drain time must be equal to at least 80% of their play time. (Not applicable to difficulties below 30 seconds of drain time.)
Just curious why you're so upset at a change that's meant to allow mappers more leeway in what they want to map and possibly have more interesting content in the ranked section? The same way you don't understand why people are so against different drain times in varying difficulties I don't understand why you're advocating so vehemently on keeping beginner diffs at all. Certain songs simply don't reflect them well, and I only see this change being a positive thing in making more interesting ranked content, not a laziness thing.Loctav wrote: 5b1v22
ah, this entire "all or nothing" attitude is horrible. So the only solution you guys managed to find was to draw shitty red lines of where stuff is either "too long to have an beginner difficulty at all" or "not long enough so map a full beginner difficulty".
I'd like to repeat what I repeated on other places already, but please somebody explain me why you guys think that "all or nothing" is the only approach that you actually were able to go with?
You say "Hey, look, we get it, mapping a 5 minutes Easy is awful and boring to everybody, it's stale and uninteresting" and then you deduct "SO DON'T MAKE THEM AT ALL!" instead of "Make an Easy that has a 1 minute of drain time, that's enough!"
It doesn't make sense. Sure, for some shitty reason or another, making beatmap sets with varying drain times between difficulties is frowned upon to heavens. (I don't know why, but ok). Also there is this one rule that prohibits you to use less than 80% of the song or something. Fair enough, but why must this be adhered to in all difficulties? Why does the rule not say "If you never use more than 80% of the song in any of the difficulties, then you can't rank it, because you should cut the song, since you never use a huge chunk of the song in any of your difficulties, but if you use 80%+ of the song in at least one or two or whatever amount of difficulites and you can do whatever length on the easier ones, then be my guest".
What I am proposing instead is to keep beginner difficulties mandatory as prior the change and as we are used to it, however, allow people to map easier difficulties of shorter drain time, so they keep getting created for beginners to enjoy, but still don't make mappers vomit the same copypaste pattern into a 5 minute map, where even the untrained monkey from the basement would fall asleep at playing it.
Healthy? ... Try to think like a responsible adult, please... How healthy is making rules that serve for the only purpose of encouraging mappers to be lazy and ignoring the need for new content for beginners in the ranked section?hi-mei wrote: 4k160
nobody cares. so yeah leave it as it is now since its the most healthy change in rc for a while.
ARGENTINE DREAM wrote: 59t3y
Healthy? ... Try to think like a responsible adult, please... How healthy is making rules that serve for the only purpose of encouraging mappers to be lazy and ignoring the need for new content for beginners in the ranked section?
Is it really ok for you to forget the core of games are PLAYERS? I don't want to brought some unrelated issues to this into this discussion, but this always comes on point when discussing about changes: You are ignoring what is better for players every time you make decisions as BN/QAT.
There are 30,000 ranked maps for osu!standard under 3*. That's over half of all ranked maps. There are also 2,500 maps above 5.5*. That's less than 5%._DUSK_ wrote: 502i4i
only thing I can see going wrong with these new rules is that there is a likelihood of there being a shortage of maps for players who are new to the game since I've noticed that many people want to map songs that are 4 minutes, so since a lot of mappers are lazy, they wouldn't make anything for new players
Toy wrote: 3u6e1z
There are 30,000 ranked maps for osu!standard under 3*. That's over half of all ranked maps. There are also 2,500 maps above 5.5*. That's less than 5%.
There's plenty of content for new players. Higher ranked players are still players, and fundamentally make up more time spent on the game than anyone new.
How are higher ranked players being affected negatively by mappers also mapping easy diffs? What. Your post doesn't really make any sense.Toy wrote: 3u6e1z
There are 30,000 ranked maps for osu!standard under 3*. That's over half of all ranked maps. There are also 2,500 maps above 5.5*. That's less than 5%.
There's plenty of content for new players. Higher ranked players are still players, and fundamentally make up more time spent on the game than anyone new.
Late to the party! Sorry.bossandy wrote: 91q67
If one day I only map an easy diff with a fast song like Road of Resistance it would be funny xD
"Absurd workload"... Lol, mapping is something you do for fun...Smokeman wrote: 556r1n
The only thing this will do is promote those mapsets by reducing the absurd workload. It's pretty good
In these exceptional special cases the mapper should prove their point on easier diffs not being mappable then the BN in charge would ask for QAT input on whether the set is rankable without easy diffs.hi-mei wrote: 4k160
Give me an example of how I should map multilayered Neuro song that cant be simplified to 1/1 rhythm on easy? or deathmetal etc?
The rule change is completely okay, nobody restricts you from mapping low diffs, go ahead if you want. But from my perspective its just a waste. The low diffs on hard songs are usually low quality because nobody cares about them, everyone knows it as a "filler diffs".
ARGENTINE DREAM wrote: 59t3y
"Absurd workload"... Lol, mapping is something you do for fun... This doesn't change that it's still a lot of workSmokeman wrote: 556r1n
The only thing this will do is promote those mapsets by reducing the absurd workload. It's pretty good
Judging by all the replies so far in this thread this new ruleset's reason of being is to encourage lazyness of mappers.
""why not map the whole set yourself", in that time your could map 3 other sets." ... Are you seriously telling me you want 3 sets from the same mapper being ranked quickly? it's more free content for the game so I don't see a downside to that You have LOTs of good mappers who aren't being taken on consideration because the current status of the BN is so unregulated only BN's friends and known mappers get their stuff ranked easily... obviously someone who is well known in the community can rank their maps a lot easier than some random no name mapper, it's like that in a lot of communities I'm pretty sure if you check now the unranked section there are plenty of good full sets potentially rankable. probably, and those sets will get ranked sooner or later if the mapper wants to push them
Also every reply in this thread is taking on only osu gamemode. So if that "unnecessary" is it for you guys just make the rule apply for osu! and leave the other 3 gamemodes exempt of it. I personally don't care about other modes, but this could help the already rather dead ones to be a little less dead
EDIT:
In these exceptional special cases the mapper should prove their point on easier diffs not being mappable then the BN in charge would ask for QAT input on whether the set is rankable without easy diffs.hi-mei wrote: 4k160
Give me an example of how I should map multilayered Neuro song that cant be simplified to 1/1 rhythm on easy? or deathmetal etc?
The rule change is completely okay, nobody restricts you from mapping low diffs, go ahead if you want. But from my perspective its just a waste. The low diffs on hard songs are usually low quality because nobody cares about them, everyone knows it as a "filler diffs".
That would solve your issue a lot better without pushing rules that promote lazyness. Then the qat would be spammed by tons of people that don't want to map low diffs for pretty much anything that isn't super simple anime, do you really think that's a good idea?
Guideline wrote: y4z2s
The highest difficulty of a mapset should correspond to the general feel of the song. An upbeat anime opening should have an Insane or Expert for the highest difficulty, while a calm piano piece can have a Normal as the highest. This is to ensure that the most popular difficulty of a mapset will properly represent what the song offers.
While i felt that songs with between 3:30 and 4:15 probably stays on the grey zone, since some "full sized" songs with that size (especially between 3:50 to 4:15, from my experience) and "Hard" isn't exactly lands on either "low diffs" or "higher diffs" but stays on between. So it's hard to desire should we allow a map that sized can be ranked with one diff or not.Ranking Criteria wrote: j1xb
If the drain time of a beatmap is...
...lower than 3:30, the lowest difficulty of each included game mode cannot be harder than a Normal and should include 2 or more difficulties, regardless of how the song feels. Because osu!mania does not have a difficulty-specific Ranking Criteria yet, an osu!mania beatmapset's Normal difficulty is defined as a difficulty below 2.00 stars. For hybrid beatmapsets that include osu! difficulties, the additional modes’ lowest difficulties cannot be harder than a Hard.
Okoratu wrote: ct57
I agree with mo, just maybe dont force Extra if the song suggests expert difficulties
I have no idea what Firis is trying to get across, because you say you propose something and then quote the RC and dont propose things? i dont know
I don't think this would fix it, that would make a lot of lazy sets with a single Hard diff, as what mo said.Mohab500 for Firis' explaination wrote: 4d6c4h
he proposed that songs higher than 3:30 should be extempt from the 2-diff rule, while TV size songs and any thing less than 3:30 should still have atleast 2 diffs;
then if a song can actually a Hard difficulty, the song should lower diff or higher diff like Normal and Insane, too, so there shouldn't be any extempt of two diff rule for set higher than 3:30 length.Ranking Criteria wrote: j1xb
If the drain time of a beatmap is between 3:30 and 4:15, the lowest difficulty of each included game mode cannot be harder than a Hard.
Ranking Criteria wrote: j1xb
Mapsets must have at least 2 difficulties. With an exception if the drain time of a beatmap is longer than 5:00.
I was referring to my guideline proposal, not yours. In any case, it would be good if you let Oko know that "I don't want to" is not a proper reasoning:-Mo- wrote: n314z
@ZiRoX The proposed guideline shouldn't be broken with just a simple "I don't wanna" since now the mapper should exhaustively explain why an extra difficulty wouldn't improve a mapset.
Yeah, my proposal allows for a EN spread on Hitorigoto, but so did the old rule about having a minimum of 2 diffs. Basically, my idea is to rollback to the minimum 2 diffs, but giving the possibility of doing a single diff on songs that do not give much space for significant differences in density between diffs (hi, R3!).-Mo- wrote: n314z
Your proposal could be interpreted as "my new Hitorigoto map has an Easy and a Normal. That's reasonable enough spread."
Having a guideline that says the top diff should correspond to the feel of the song would be equally affected by a reasoning like "I don't think it needs a higher diff", but somehow you're way more open to that idea.Okoratu wrote: ct57
Having a guideline to say "you should map two diffs" but it not being required would make reasoning among the lines of "I dont need two difficulties" exhaustive.
Making it a requirement again is probably forcing difficulties that are either just dupes of existing things (aka this is the easy but harder) or altogether chore-difficulties for the sake of their existence and not for the sake of fitting music
-Mo- wrote: n314z
Guideline wrote: y4z2s
The highest difficulty of a mapset should correspond to the general feel of the song. An upbeat anime opening should have an Insane or Expert for the highest difficulty, while a calm piano piece can have a Normal as the highest. This is to ensure that the most popular difficulty of a mapset will properly represent what the song offers.
The highest difficulty of a beatmapset should correspond to the general feel of the song. Easy/Normal difficulties can be used as the highest difficulties of a beatmapset if their rhythms are not oversimplified. A Hard difficulty or beyond should be the highest difficulty otherwise.
RC wrote: 616b45
The highest difficulty of a beatmapset should correspond to the general feel of the song. Easy/Normal difficulties can be used as the highest difficulties of a beatmapset if their rhythms are not oversimplified. A Hard difficulty or beyond should be the highest difficulty otherwise.
RC wrote: 616b45
The highest difficulty of a beatmapset should correspond to the general feel of the song. It should not have oversimplified rhythms and object placement should correspond to the sounds in the music.
Okoratu wrote: ct57
i think it isnt too limiting, the scenarios where you'd run into this is when you're making easy / normal only on medium sized songs - provided people were hammered in the face for nominating these in the past i don't think this limits you at all - conversely with Mohab's wording someone could claim the songs s an Ultra and demand an Ultra
and i dont think that's gonna end well
I agree with this, the removal of the 2 diff rule allows 30 second mapsets with only an Easy or Normal to be rankable (same with 3:30 single hard diff or 4:15 single insane diff) and 1 diff will only appeal to a certain group of players. The main issue about it is that longer songs won't have low diffs anymore so new players can't play them, this is especially problematic on maps starting at insane or having only 1 insane diff at 4:15 length.tatatat wrote: 3i245q
As I've already stated, I firmly believe only marathons should be able to have 1 diff. All others lengths should require at least two diffs. If that requires 2 diffs that are very very similar, who cares? If they are very very similar it should be easy to make and satisfy the 2 diff requirement.
Shouldn't there be something about marathon mapsets? What if the mapper just wants to make a 5+ minute Easy or Normal mapset?pishifat wrote: 641v53
the recently discussed guideline in this thread has been applied in https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/1651 and will be amended to the ranking criteria in about 5 days
if anyone has concerns about the change, now is the time to show them!