Agka wrote: 5w4hu

well, osu!mania translations are not a reason to force rules onto standard, those.

Nowhere am I forcing anything. If it is a step toward improvement, why not suggest it?

Also, until the day that this "All" turns into Standard, as far as I know the map will have to be available for All game modes:


I'm not aware of any rule saying otherwise, anyway.

Err, I'll just point out the whole polarity changing thing, which would make a lot of stuff considered "overmapped" by the OP definition (unless they use sliderends, which just doesn't always work if there aren't any "hold" notes present).

Also 1:1 between the beats in the music and the map would be a horrible idea. Mapping should be 1:1 between the map and the song/music, as in your subjective feeling. It's kind of like slider velocity; some songs that could be mapped with, say 1.6 or 1.8 SV could very well be mapped with 1.2 and using short, small sliderjumps to capture a distinct feeling of small breaks in the music. Not that this is related to overmapping anyway (unless your subjective feeling of the song is that the jumps doesn't fit the song at all).

Keep a rule for no excessive overmap, link to a wiki page describing overmap, how it can be used well in some cases, but other times work bad. Include examples that *ATs can point to. Then just state that in the case that there are disagreement, discuss with other *ATs (this shouldn't happen often if the wiki is thorough with it) and say that in the end, the *ATs have the last say or something or other.

the "All" option (given that there's no standard option) implies that it's the standard version. I can see you want to improve on that, but that's getting away from the main point- standard mode maps.

I tried submitting a rule like this. It got nuked because it was too subjective. It will need to be more specific than <insert subjective adjective> amounts of overmapping or banning it in general. The definition of overmapping is multifaceted.

A pattern is deemed overmapped if:

1. Hitobjects do not land on an identifiable sound.
2. The objects in their current orientation do not match the tempo of the part of music being mapped.
3. The overmapping is noticeable while playing and negatively affects the flow of the map.

the last part is subjective. It's really not possible to have standards that aren't.

We already defined overmapping though. We need to see the cases where it's a go or it needs ouendan.

Fair enough

Different diffs should have different standards tho. As for highest diff we should consider more if it feels really okay when there is no beat. That's to say leaving a bit leeway to discuss when some circumstances are reached.

I still believe that you shall represent the song you are mapping, so I see no reason how mapping something, that doesn't exis in any layer of the music is helpin representing the actual mp3.
Maybe we can work with a definition of musical layers, since most songs have more than 1. And overmapping might start there, when you map something that:
1.) represents none of the given layers
2.) represents too many layers at once so it's unclear which
3.) swaps too frequent between the layers so you don't know what to follow

Feel free to expand the idea

cheesiest wrote: 3t2335

RLC wrote: l1c5m

osu!standard maps are mapped to be played in osu!standard. and this isn't just me saying this; i've been told this by a number of BATs.

I can quote this numerous times.
osu! is osu! , why does it have to be related to other modes?
That makes all the maps, which have the obvious changes of slider velocity like 1.0->1.5, unrankable due to the Taiko mode.
It definitely doesn't not make sense if someone refers to the other modes.

also
Overmapping will be bad for the players who want to hit everything according to the music strictly.
Overmapping will be fun for the players who want to hit everything that they are familiar(like most of maps) and get fun of it.

It just sounds bad if the overmapping is placed on where are not appropriate(which you can hear and feel unfitting about it)
but sometimes it's also well done if the overmapping is placed on the right spot.
I will say NO to this rule because this will lead to the shitstorm.
and Jump is also considered overmapping as well. No one wants to see the map that follows the music strictly 100% but has the placements like TAG maps.

anyways, it's our"common sense"to judge if the overmapping is acceptable or not that you have to judge depending on each maps individually.
Let the community tell the mapper (from its s, comments on the maps, rating, etc.) if it's bad or not.

Technically overmapping can't be defined as 'putting note where there is no sound', because mappers are free to put beats in mp3.

You're being brainwashed. Stop believing that.

those wrote: 2f131h

Also, until the day that this "All" turns into Standard, as far as I know the map will have to be available for All game modes:


I'm not aware of any rule saying otherwise, anyway.

Exactly

lolcubes wrote: 331p4a

There doesn't have to be a rule for something for you to say NO to. It's more of a matter why some people say yes in the team.

Because some mappers in the team are blatant s of obvious overmapping. Most if not all maps nowadays would be overmapped by this definition, but not all use overmapping in a bad way. The problem is a problem of how much it fits and flows, again. The BAT has always accepted streams leading to finishes when there is no actual 1/4 in the song because in most cases it plays well.
The problem with overmapping is when it becomes abusive, like 3/4 sliders or random triples. This needs to be stopped because it's plain confusing and doesn't play well.

those wrote: 2f131h

You're being brainwashed. Stop believing that.

Actually, I'd rather believe mapping is remix the song not only fit the song :/
Why do you limit mapper's creativity? some "overmapping" maps are bad I agree this opinion. However we not only have bad map but also have some outstanding "overmapping" map. That was why we need XAT and XAT should judge the map is good enough be ranked or just a piece of shit :/

This is a rhythm game. Per se, rhythm games are defined as a simulation genre that makes you perform on a song.
You are free to be creative, as long as you stay in the frame. You put creativity as "highest goal", when you totally forget the purpose of what you do: "mapping something for the song you create a stage for".
You are free to express music, as you as you express the music, not the everlasting desire to express your artistic creativity for the sake of being outstanding and unique.
Many "creative" things are so forcefully "creative", that it's just appearing invented.

And tbh the subjective frame of expressing something that is given is very limited. Since you have something to guide yourself at.
This rule is an attempt to find this "limit", since right now we have none.

Sometimes, art might be art - but stays to be shit at the same moment.

rhythem != music

Scorpiour wrote: 2pj3z

rhythem != music

You are misunderstanding the word "rhythm" in a musical context then.

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

Scorpiour wrote: 2pj3z

rhythem != music

You are misunderstanding the word "rhythm" in a musical context then.

maybe.. maybe not :>

you know, there won't be only one or two tracks in a music, so sometimes how to judge "which rhythm to follow" is only depended on mappers' understanding :>

that's why i say "rhythm != music"

That's what I described with my layers-approach, You should read it p/2210450 o:

Music is an art form whose medium is sound and silence. Its common elements are pitch (which governs melody and harmony), rhythm (and its associated concepts tempo, meter, and articulation), dynamics, and the sonic qualities of timbre and texture.

Being a rhythm game does not imply that the rhythm rules everything because you are based on a song but not simply based on a rhythm. The messages from the song, as well as the map is brought as a whole. As mentioned before, the grey zone should goes to particular judgement and the proposed frame has been too restrictive and hinders potential outstanding map.

You can treat art as shit, this is fine. The point is, they can be welcomed by the majority and making sense, then why not? Quite a lot of examples have been proposed here.

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

That's what I described with my layers-approach, You should read it p/2210450 o:

read~~

however, whenever the mapper add hitsounds to a music, the hitsounds will become a new "track" of the whole music. As a result, the new track will change the feeling of original music.

to myself, the best solution is "no adding any hitsound" to beatmap, but obviously it is impossible

popner wrote: 2s73y

Technically overmapping can't be defined as 'putting note where there is no sound', because mappers are free to put beats in mp3.

Once they actually exert the effort to do this, then yes, it won't be overmapped, but when the mp3 -doesn't- have these added beats, it'll remain labeled as overmapping.

I'm not saying it'll be bad, but I'm saying that it will still be termed as overmapping. Although Charles' attempt at giving a solid rule for us to follow in of overmapping, I feel that it is too limited in scope to leave it to sliders only for adding new beats. There are plenty of instances where the flow of the map click-wise simply would be broken if you were forced to use a slider instead. This is just one of those aspects of mapping where you need to use your own judgement on whether the technique is applied well or not. The problem is that even when you say it is overmapping, it has such a negative stigma recently that people get offended by the mere mention of it. Calm down, check the mod for the merits of the suggestion, and adjust accordingly.

This is not an osu standard map but I wonder what people in this thread have to say about this

https://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/s/74779

in the [Normal], from 01:22:064 to 01:26:516
the music goes:
x 1/1 x 1/1 x 1/2 x 1/1 x 1/1 x 1/1 x 1/1 x 1/2 etc
the map goes:
x 3/4 x 3/4 x 3/4 x 3/4 x 3/4 x 3/4 x 3/4 x 3/4 etc

There are no multiple layers of rhythms in the song at this part. There is no excuse here.
The map completely disregards the song and makes up its own rhythm from the mapper's imagination.

Personally I was disgusted by this while playing this map. I wonder what other people feel about this style of overmapping?

Frostmourne wrote: 4k533o

I can quote this numerous times.
osu! is osu! , why does it have to be related to other modes?
That makes all the maps, which have the obvious changes of slider velocity like 1.0->1.5, unrankable due to the Taiko mode.
It definitely doesn't not make sense if someone refers to the other modes.

also
Overmapping will be bad for the players who want to hit everything according to the music strictly.
Overmapping will be fun for the players who want to hit everything that they are familiar(like most of maps) and get fun of it.

It just sounds bad if the overmapping is placed on where are not appropriate(which you can hear and feel unfitting about it)
but sometimes it's also well done if the overmapping is placed on the right spot.
I will say NO to this rule because this will lead to the shitstorm.
and Jump is also considered overmapping as well. No one wants to see the map that follows the music strictly 100% but has the placements like TAG maps.

anyways, it's our"common sense"to judge if the overmapping is acceptable or not that you have to judge depending on each maps individually.
Let the community tell the mapper (from its s, comments on the maps, rating, etc.) if it's bad or not.

I wholeheartedly agree with this post, and I also think this is the reason why this should be more a guideline than a rule if it has really to be added. While there are some totally overmapped rhythms in various maps which should totally be changed into something suitable to the music, sometimes patterns could represent a nice addition to the map/song, which could really help with the flow usage, and so going... As Frost mentioned, MATs/BATs should already have some "common sense" in judging what makes sense and what DOESEN'T make sense, and I really can't see what this should be added as a rule.
Aqo: Can't you hear the synth's chords in the background? These 3/4 notes are totally following them. While I still think following the vocals would be better there, following the synth instead isn't so terrifying, even though the synth chords there can barely be heard.

kinda off-topic here:

A rule stipulates that all mappers should do in a particular way when mapping, for example: mappers must use 128~192k mp3 is a rule, as long as they want get maps ranked.

So if we decide to make it a rule, get all considerations and questions clear. If we always need to discuss after saying xxx breaks the rule, we shall put it into guidlines. A rule doesn't need discussing if someone break it, just fix it.

I disagree with this. the rules will destroy mapping's developing

first, overmapping shouldn't be define as a specific rule. it's nearly impossible to tell a map is overmapped or not with rules. we need to judge every map every diff by what we thought/felt manually but not by rules
for example, this rule is only saying bad rhyme may be an overmapping stuff. but in fact, overmapping determined by a variety of technical mapping design. such as huge jump, super slider speed, etc.
so it's not necessary to set a rule to tell map is overmapped or not, it should be judged by man

second, the purpose of mapping a song is making the map to fit the song, but not only following the song. the latter will restrict the developing of mapping.
when we map something to follow the song/music, the situation is like: when we map something to fit the song/music, then it become: it's easy to see the second way bring us more possibility of mapping, it's a better way

-kevincela- wrote: 1l4y5l

Aqo: Can't you hear the synth's chords in the background? These 3/4 notes are totally following them. While I still think following the vocals would be better there, following the synth instead isn't so terrifying, even though the synth chords there can barely be heard.

After listening to it 10 times slowed down I can hear it now. wow. This map is amazingly misleading for requiring you to hear this but at least I have to take back what I said earlier, I guess this does follow the song heh. Do people actually find misleadingness like this fun? Because imo this is just frustrating to play.

Which rolls back to the main topic here -> overmapping can be good if it's fun to play, but how do you know what's fun for people and what's not other than simply asking a lot of players?

Aqo wrote: 2c2q2z

-kevincela- wrote: 1l4y5l

Aqo: Can't you hear the synth's chords in the background? These 3/4 notes are totally following them. While I still think following the vocals would be better there, following the synth instead isn't so terrifying, even though the synth chords there can barely be heard.

After listening to it 10 times slowed down I can hear it now. wow. This map is amazingly misleading for requiring you to hear this but at least I have to take back what I said earlier, I guess this does follow the song heh. Do people actually find misleadingness like this fun? Because imo this is just frustrating to play.

Actually, if we think it negatively it's misleading rhythm, but if we think it positively it's advanced rhythm for expert plays who can get fun from playing "Easy" rhythms. I won't give an clear answer whether is correct or not, since people's opinions vary.

Misleadingness is predictably the next orz issue we are gonna to discuss endlessly right after the overmapping one, for the reason I wrote in bold

Aqo: We're talking about the Standard Mode, right?

To 75% we can talk about it that Overmapping is something subjective. And of course, Subjectivity is no pardon to keep a Map with many many song-unrelated Triplets and Streams. If you ask me it's exactlly like the Question "What constitutes a good Map?". To 75% it is subjective if Person 1 find it good and if Person 2 find it very bad. There's no real Criterias how good a Map is and why and why not. I the point that Circles and Slider Starts should not start on a non-beat Time. Because this would cause that you have silent Hitobjects, and these things should not be ranked. Not sure if this would work that for the ends of Sliders and Spinners since Spinner are often used to end Beatmaps and often these Songs has no real Beat at the end because they faded out, etc.

I would love to see it as Guideline but this would make no difference because there is no describtion for now what we define as Overmapping and when it could be avoided. And at last but not least we (which contains like 1000 people or so) cannot speak about Overmapping for the whole community. 60% of the people are saying that they would map like how it is. But 10% says that they would change this and that and another 20% want to change that. It might sounds weird but let's take the numbers 1 2 3 4 5. 60% perfer this order while the 10% perfer 1 2 4 5 3 and the 20% perfer 1 3 2 5 4. What I acutally mean with "that": Where to set a Triplet/Stream, where to set a Jump, where to set a Circle/Slider. The mapper should make it sure that the Map allows to use Streams or Triplets on specific parts. Otherwise I wouldn't call the Mapper as good tbh. Especially for people which have many ranked Maps they NEED to know and to justify their sight about Mapping and why they mapped like that.

About other Play Modes: Converted Taiko Maps are often really gross, I wouldn't use it here to the Discussion. No idea about o!m but honestly, there are coming so many Maps of them.. I think it won't take long that we have enough Maps of them. CtB is the best Mode to convert Standard Maps (in case the Map hasn't things like unreachable Jumps or Slider Tickrate 4).

LKs wrote: 6u1w52

Actually, if we think it negatively it's misleading rhythm, but if we think it positively it's advanced rhythm for expert plays who can get fun from playing "Easy" rhythms. I won't give an clear answer whether is correct or not, since people's opinions vary.

I agree with you, that for advanced players a more complex rhythm can be more interesting for the extra challenge it requires.
That's why I pointed out a [Normal] diff and not an [Extra]. Had this been in an [Extra] I'd be far more ok with it.

The sad thing is that used to be the Easy difficulty. osu!mania mappers have some really weird notions when it comes to difficulty spread that need to be adapted for acceptance in this environment.

But mainly Aqo's point is that using these types of overmapping techniques with off-kilter rhythm work in the lower-end difficulties (ENH) really should be discouraged, and I whole-heartedly agree.

Overmapping is cool when it's done in a way that enhances the music or makes the music more memorable. Example: most KIRBY Mix difficulties.

Not that there aren't cool things already prohibited in the ranking criteria...

lolcubes wrote: 331p4a

Also this rule would still allow the really disgusting extended sliders which intentionally go past the required rhythm point just to justify "cool rhythms" or "it follows the vocals".

These can be neat if they still fit the feel of the music. See RJ's 'Buttons' map. I never saw overmapping as something that was explicitly wrong, but it is done wrongly more than it is correctly. Apparently, shit like 'Luv Letter' is totally fine, even though the overmapping there is inconsistent with the rest of the map and generally does nothing to augment the music itself.

On the other hand, Sandpig's 'Nuclear Fusion' map has it hitsounded to feel like a part of the music and generally make it feel integral to the overall feeling. It still fits. My 'Footloose' map has an overmapped stack towards the end of the song, but it still fits the feel when it lands on a caterwauling vocal line.

Really, it should be a heavily enforced guideline for insanes and a heavily enforced rule for everything else. Case-by-case, if something in an insane feels like it shouldn't be there, then it should be lumped. If there's overmapping which feels like it's part of the music, then I wouldn't complain if it doesn't make the map obscenely hard.

I don't mind to definate overmap, but what's that for? Enough people expressed the idea: Overmapping could be used right or wrong, it depends.

And when something is like "it depends", it's no way a rule.

I think such a rule is trying to ensure map quality, then well... that's what XAT are for, not rules.

seat stay

Soaprman wrote: 3s6r1r

Overmapping is cool when it's done in a way that enhances the music or makes the music more memorable. Example: most KIRBY Mix difficulties.

Not that there aren't cool things already prohibited in the ranking criteria...

^ This.

If overmapping doesn't enhance the music then it doesn't have business being mapped. This is subjective though.


I'm just going to go out and say it. Subjectivity in rules is natural. I swear the revolts of 2011 didn't know what they were talking about. Some rules should and are based on strong opinion, but BAT have the authority and knowledge to decide when a map violates a rule. This system will not be perfect, but at least it wont be limiting. Other court systems make the wrong decision sometimes, BAT should be allowed to make a choice as well. There should not be unwritten rules and guidelines. Everything we value in maps should be out in the open, even the controversial aspects of mapping. The staff needs to stop hiding behind this veil of subjectivity.

There are views for and against overmapping. That would make this suitable as a guideline. Older views literally stated that overmapping was healthy and there should not even be a guideline about it. All the popular mappers overmap, so it's perfectly acceptable right? No!

I personally don't see a need for the end of a spinner to fit the music, but slider ends should to accomodate for the mania gamemode (if i'm not wrong you have to release on time?) and thus there are implications for off beat sliders.
Also in default osu i've let sliders go early because it ends later than i expected (following the beat) (still trying to think of an example)

TL;DR slider ends should also follow the beat

Don't mind of overmapping in insane+ difs if that complete/follows rhythm but please burn this shitty random triples from hards please.

there should be some kind of "exception" for additively hitsounded maps, like Sandpig or LKs do, as these feel natural and hood because they contribute something additional to the song - sadly, that's hard to define, but i guess you'll agree?

._.

players want more funny maps (except the exceptions people) and mappers want too.-making funny maps-
and then actually, used virtual beat is very good work sometimes.
but, other ones. We need to be aware there is not good for playing
mappers should take care of that issues.
btw, I think don't need to add this rule as ranking criteria.
if enforce it, mappers feel pressure to spread their creativity.

I think it's just need to add as guideline

Dark Fang wrote: 6k5l28

players want more funny maps

osu! humor club.

But yeah, this is a definite "too subject to opinion and too broad" subject to place into a rule without spending most of your time interpreting it. Rules should be things that can't be very open to interpretation (Ie. "Maps must be perfectly timed, have a background, have a certain number of diffs"). It's forever stuck as one of those things that BATs just have to point out before maps get ranked.

^or modders , though people hate me for doingn stuff like that

Let's say we do this to restrict notes that can appear in maps. Ok. That'll take care of streams and shit. Then the next step would be, naturally, to deal with overdone jumps. Yeah, so like, you are not allowed to use Ax spacing if the amplitude of a wave in the mp3 does not exceed A*1/sqrt(1-v--what the fuck!? no!

I agree wholeheartedly with what Frostmourne said earlier about jumps. Jumpspam is the complementary concept of overmapping, but overmapping is easier to objectify so we see more threads about it.

Awkward jumpspam is bad. But jumpspam can be really fun if done well! (the usual example being val maps)
The same goes for overmapping. (val maps also demonstrate some natural-to-hit, overmapped 1/4 stacks). I don't understand why this duality is so hard for some people to grasp.

What is "fitting" for a song depends very greatly on a player's skill level. Whereas some players may find jumps/overmapped streams in a map to be completely overdone and shitty, a player of a higher skill level may find them very natural. In fact, I know a number of players that find jumps more natural to hit than lesser-spaced, more conventionally "flowy" patterns! And often times, a map is overmapped / hitsounded in such a way that fits so well you can't even tell it's overmapped without listening to the song excruciatingly closely. And if you have to do that in order to call a map overmapped, it doesn't go to say much about the map. It just says that you're a prick!!!!!1111oneone

In the end, it's about how awkward it is to play, for the people that are able to play it. Something like this should be handled on a case-by-case basis. I stand by my earlier opinion that this would do better as a Guideline.

(like val0108 stuff)

wcx19911123 wrote: 2h2g3d

it's easy to see the second way bring us more possibility of mapping, it's a better way

Except, that's the wrong definition. Rather, it should look like this:

val0108 wrote: 6b2v1x

(like val0108 stuff)

you may put it like that RLC, but the exaggerating example of jumps was sorta irrealistic xP (and val maps are bad because they abuse slider leniency and so use them as a "click once, hit twice" sort of object, but that's my opinion o3o)

flow discussion thread, anyone?

depends if it's musically tasteful or not

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping

Sync wrote: f5m41

depends if it's musically tasteful or not

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping

https://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/s/29064

Prime example.

Sync wrote: f5m41

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping

/thread

Jenny wrote: 656v3l

you may put it like that RLC, but the exaggerating example of jumps was sorta irrealistic xP

if they do this about overmapped notes, i don't see what will stop them from doing something like that to overdone jumps.

also

Sync wrote: f5m41

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping

exactly

may i put one of my own maps as an example for slight, additive "overmapping"?

if so, http://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/s/77069 - agree?

I agree RLC & Dark Fang. I guess, most of players are really want really fun and really creative map.

There's no absolute definition of overmapping that states it as 100% bad. It changes with the BPM, the decibel level/pitch, and rhythm itself. Make it a guideline. It's better than nothing at all.

Charles' position:Overmap is not allowed in any time.(Overmap's definition is any slider start/end/circle/spinner end not touch any sound in music even it's a 1/2 or 1/1)

Community's position:Overmap is okay if it is
1.an Insane diff
2.Fun/Fit(subjective thing)

Seems that alomst (I am not dare to say exactly) no one agrees with charles' rule which doesn't allow mappers do any overmap.

You guys get it?

Sync wrote: f5m41

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping

Doesn't change the fact it is overmapping. And that's the problem here; determining whether a map is good should come after whether it follows the music.

hi those

RLC wrote: l1c5m

And often times, a map is overmapped / hitsounded in such a way that fits so well you can't even tell it's overmapped without listening to the song excruciatingly closely. And if you have to do that in order to call a map overmapped, it doesn't go to say much about the map. It just says that you're a prick!!!!!1111oneone

thoughts?

Sync wrote: f5m41

depends if it's musically tasteful or not

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping

mappers must evince that. don't need unnatural overmapping for non-experience mappers.
not bad the overmapping for natural flow on playing.

TheVileOne wrote: p102h

Make it a guideline.

yea I agree

Oh, perfect. Then there'd be one more thing to do to improve the map, and that'd be to make better use of hitsounds.
Not that I don't like great hitsounds or anything, but I'm sure there's a song out there that lets you use a specific object rhythm placement or a hitsound pattern. So go find it and don't press it on a song that doesn't have it.

those wrote: 2f131h

Sync wrote: f5m41

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping

Doesn't change the fact it is overmapping. And that's the problem here; determining whether a map is good should come after whether it follows the music.

Let me put it in words for you:

You're trying too hard.

If you don't go looking for overmapping, and it doesn't stick out to you, it should be fine since that means the majority of players won't notice it, unless you don't trust your judgement, which I think you do since you're always so sure about it.

If it DOES stick out to you then it might be a problem.

This is my rule of thumb when I go modding maps.

Nyquill wrote: 3g5f6x

If you don't go looking for overmapping, and it doesn't stick out to you, it should be fine since that means the majority of players won't notice it, unless you don't trust your judgement, which I think you do since you're always so sure about it.

It's not my fault it automatically screams in my face though. It comes with experience.

i was going to put it in words for those: you're being a prick!!!!111oneone
but nyquill did it better

Also theres different mapping style
1.Seeing mapping as a remix of a song
2.Mapping what exact the song
3.Mapping the own feeling of themselves

If the rule ran,1 and 3 mapping styles would be disappear.
Thats mean no more 0108 lks sandpig whoever.
98%of ranked maps will break that rule.

those wrote: 2f131h

Nyquill wrote: 3g5f6x

If you don't go looking for overmapping, and it doesn't stick out to you, it should be fine since that means the majority of players won't notice it, unless you don't trust your judgement, which I think you do since you're always so sure about it.

It's not my fault it automatically screams in my face though. It comes with experience.

That means you it not standing for the majority, the better of the community then?

I personally do not overmap, but at the same time I'm not against overmapping. If some mappers likes it, then I don't mind.

i feel tempted to point out that a vast majority of players just wants to hit circles and likes saying things along the lines of "omg only the objects matter that is the only thing that is the map the rest is unneeded"

but yeah, many maps have something that feels overmapped and the most cases, in my experience, are 1/2 sliders starting on red ticks where there is nothing or if there is something, it is an instrument the mapper did not follow the whole time before and just uses it as an excuse when poked on it - tales of modding S:

Nyquill wrote: 3g5f6x

That means you it not standing for the majority, the better of the community then?

I wouldn't go so far as to saying the better, but even if the majority stands for something I don't stand for, I can't do anything about it but to continually convince them.

those wrote: 2f131h

Sync wrote: f5m41

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping

Doesn't change the fact it is overmapping. And that's the problem here; determining whether a map is good should come after whether it follows the music.

Sometimes the song itself is flawed. It skips a note in the music or the beat itself is setup to make it seem like there is a sound there, but there really isn't. In these cases if you have a note there, it will feel natural, the beat becomes complete. Making this strictly a rule will potentially disallow necessary hitsound transitions, which will harm the potential for certain songs to be mapped.

Do not look at this from a utopian ideal that all song's are perfectly composed. It is often that certain rhythms in a song are assumed. Mappers should be able to map rhythm patterns as they were meant to be portrayed, not as how the song actually portrays them.

Here's a question I've been meaning to ask everyone's opinion on:

Is blank.mp3 rankable?

Sync wrote: f5m41

depends if it's musically tasteful or not

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping

I love this quote really, it's like what I've wanted to explain all the time

those wrote: 2f131h

Here's a question I've been meaning to ask everyone's opinion on:

Is blank.mp3 rankable?

yes, I can rename my Magic Girl!! song to blank.mp3 and drag to the osu!

why would you have to refer to this all the time?

those wrote: 2f131h

Nyquill wrote: 3g5f6x

That means you it not standing for the majority, the better of the community then?

I wouldn't go so far as to saying the better, but even if the majority stands for something I don't stand for, I can't do anything about it but to continually convince them.

I say the better because we're trying to advance the community for the playerbase. And if the playerbase does not have problems, why should any individual say differently? You're basically saying that we're not mapping for the players, but for yourself.

Way to contradict your ideal way of mapping.

I'm not saying you have your head wrong anywhere, but you should stop pushing things on others that the majority of people don't give a flying fuck about.

that is what i use sliderends for, TVO, as they give a hitsound but do not require you to take an active action, so they are the most lenient part in mapping/hitsounding availble, in my opinion, and should therefore be the most used for things like that

@those: for not "necessary" files, yes, that means spinnerspin, sliderslide and, in some cases, a certain soundsample's hitnormal, likr in cases where you use the taiko hitsounds and it does not feel good to have a donhit on every kat/big don etc; you get my point

• for essential files, no, i guess? there'd be no reason to use it?

those wrote: 2f131h

Sync wrote: f5m41

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping

Doesn't change the fact it is overmapping. And that's the problem here; determining whether a map is good should come after whether it follows the music.

Quit being stubborn for your own sake. Good overmapping follows the music. Doesn't make sense? Sounds contradictory? Listen closely: overmapping should come from the music -- not random 1/4 triples or whatever you guys hate (I hate them too).

You're right, following the music is what makes a map good; however, "following" isn't a stagnant definition.

Seeing as you're a music man yourself, you should be able to see this. You don't because you're close-minded and refuse to open your eyes (ears in this case).

Jenny, misunderstanding the question. I meant a 3 minute blank sound file used as the song.

oh well... o.o
sort of a thing but i don't think we have to bother with highly improbable, not to say not-happening things - though i firce manipulating a taiko diff to make the player play the song or something, so in that case, that was weird but... acceptable? ( though i doubt i'd accept it if i was to rank it )

Strictly speaking. There is no rule that says the mp3 cannot be silent. So I would assume yes. If it's not written down, then it's rankable until it is officially determined as unrankable. If you view the ranking criteria as a contract. Anything that is not on the contract is not a mapper obligation.

blank.mp3 cant compare with a music with has no any beat.

In music,there are still guitar string sounds but not exactly blank,just no vocal/drum sound starts at there.
,we can still remix it or map our “feelings”
But in blank.mp3,totally blank.nothing

however,blank.mp3 is rankable though

Those,

The other day I mentioned that you still have to listen to the music.

I think you mistook what I meant.

I mean that if the patterns themselves (osu! being a unique music game, using freedom of movement as a core game mechanic) fit the music, then obviously people will like it, and therefore people will still have to listen to the music to get people to like their maps. If the beat itself doesn't hinder this effect, why are we changing it?

Again, you're not thinking for the playerbase, but for yourself.

those wrote: 2f131h

Nyquill wrote: 3g5f6x

That means you it not standing for the majority, the better of the community then?

I wouldn't go so far as to saying the better, but even if the majority stands for something I don't stand for, I can't do anything about it but to continually convince them.

Except being a BAT, you actually have the power to force people to stand for what you stand for (if they want their map ranked anyway).
If possible, could you refer to specific maps you find overmapped? I'm just curious as to how much my own opinion differs here (being a guy who doesn't mind overmapping as long as it plays well and all.)

This overmapping business is something that should be looked upon as a whole. Defining overmapping is arguably subjective (at least, defining bad overmapping).
In the same way map settings like SV aren't fixed 100%, this shouldn't be any different. Should any issues arise they will just come naturally in the modding process.

Good maps come in different forms, and overmapping is one of them.

CXu wrote: 344051

Except being a BAT, you actually have the power to force people to stand for what you stand for (if they want their map ranked anyway).

We actually do not have that kind of power ;3

An example that comes right to mind is http://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/s/51245, if you want one.

Which diff? Rin or 0108 (since you didn't link a specific diff )

And what I meant by that was that even if a mapper has a different opinion on overmapping, they are forced to change their stance (for that particular map) if they ever want to see it ranked. Of course, they can just decide to "nope", but most people do want their maps to be ranked.

nold_1702 wrote: c162z

Also theres different mapping style
1.Seeing mapping as a remix of a song
2.Mapping what exact the song
3.Mapping the own feeling of themselves

If the rule ran,1 and 3 mapping styles would be disappear.
Thats mean no more 0108 lks sandpig whoever.
98%of ranked maps will break that rule.

Map to fit the song. Always. Mapping is not composing--it is creating an experience based on the music. The first and third "styles" are flat-out wrong if the mapper's only considering it like that. Imposing "creativity" where it doesn't fit tends to end up being garbage. This is what mm meant about maps not being art projects. osu! is a game and one's creativity shouldn't detract from the gameplay/what it's supposed to follow.

This falls under my only personal absolute: "Don't be stupid." The most simple solution is not to overmap at all. If you feel too restricted by the music, then drop it and use a different song or learn to map within more constraints.

DEEDIT: I'd also like to point out the other definition of overmapping: Following too much of the music at once. I believe that this could be addressed as a guideline, but really now. If the entire map is so dense that it obliterates any sense of pacing and variance, then something is very wrong. What I mean is, for example, a dramatic and sustained vocal line in a chorus being ignored entirely, with the section following the backline all the way through. That and, say, making a cluttered mess out of a relaxed section, just because there happens to be some faint percussion in the background that's playing intricate, delicate patterns.

Mapping itself is quite a musical thing, so learning what's more important to emphasise can have a tremendous effect on the overall quality of the map. As such, I feel that overmapping should be kept tasteful with this in mind. Sandpig's 'Nuclear Fusion' uses overmapping effectively, because it's generally used to emphasise specific points of the music in a consistent manner.

Both have elements, CXu P:

Songs are not perfect.

Some songs have repeating 1/2th 3 note patterns, but they sometimes miss a sound. So the pattern looks like 1,2,3--1,2,3---2,3--1,2,3 The third pattern will start on a red tick. Going from white to the red tick after the next white tick can be awkward. Also you have to keep in mind the objective to keeping easy difficulties simple. I do not think we should be attacking the freedom to make easier difficulties easier. That will be a counterproductive aspect to this "rule" if we don't exclude simpler difficulties from this interpretation.

This is hardly debatable.

Charles knows enough about flow to know that 3/4th is awkward. Sometimes it's necessary to ignore the sounds that appear on blue ticks in favor for maintaining a 1/1 beat. If overmapping is 100% bad, then a 3/4th song should have an easy mapped in 3/4th. Would you recommend this? I know sometimes maps can be oversimplified and that can be a problem, but it shouldn't be entirely banned, because it forces mappers to map things in an unfavorable way or even worse cause them to consider an Easy difficulty as hopeless and just stick with a Normal.

I think that the definition shouldn't be taken lightly. It must acknowledge good overmapping compared to bad overmapping. I disagree that creating triples that aren't present in music is always bad and uncalled for. I have seen enough songs that have a triple in one measure, and not have a triple in a very similar measure a bit later in the song. It doesn't make sense to suddenly not map a triple because the music just doesn't include one. It makes playing less predictable and throws off pattern construction and design.

Do not easily overlook this issue. I agree that subjectivity can be handled suitably by XATs. Normal modders cannot easily enforce such rules, and unless they have some indication on how to enforce them they are unlikely to find these issues before the maps make it to the MATs. Also those who will want to inform mappers, or the mappers who want to make maps that follow the rules will not have enough information to decide the proper course of action in a map. A subjective rule is not something that should be carelessly instated without explanation. Mappers will view these rules and try to form their maps around them. With that being said, it is important that there be enough detail in the rule that any mapper wishing to follow it will be able to. A lack of understanding will create confusion. Rules should not be a catalyst for confusion.

Scenario that i do not want to happen

Modder: you should map it this way. Your current technique is hard to read.
Mapper: No. That would violate the Overmapping rule. I don't want to break the rules.
Modder: No. There are exceptions. The rule isn't described all that well. It is better to do it this way.
Mapper: I'll keep it the way it is for now.

(Depending on the modder, it might not even get to the response part of the conversation. It will end with the mapper confused about the proper way of doing something, until the next qualified modder says the same thing.)

Please phrase it in a way that can be followed by people other than BATs.

Simplifying rhythms to fit easy and, occasionally, normal as well, is something that mm does and advocates. "Overmapping" in the sense of ignoring awkward parts is completely fine if it feels steady and makes sense with the music. However, offbeats can still be accented by ending sliders on them, or even using circles on their own if the music makes such a thing intuitive.

From what I've gathered, most people are looking at overmapping in the additive sense, i.e. adding complications which don't exist in the music. It should be straightforward enough to express the overmapping rule, while also expressing that patterns may need to be simplified.

D33d wrote: 1z2z1f

nold_1702 wrote: c162z

Also theres different mapping style
1.Seeing mapping as a remix of a song
2.Mapping what exact the song
3.Mapping the own feeling of themselves

Map to fit the song. Always. Mapping is not composing--it is creating an experience based on the music. The first and third "styles" are flat-out wrong if the mapper's only considering it like that. Imposing "creativity" where it doesn't fit tends to end up being garbage. This is what mm meant about maps not being art projects. osu! is a game and one's creativity shouldn't detract from the gameplay/what it's supposed to follow.

This falls under my only personal absolute: "Don't be stupid." The most simple solution is not to overmap at all. If you feel too restricted by the music, then drop it and use a different song or learn to map within more constraints.

Nope. Map to fit the song does not imply that mapping in of the first and third ways are not correct. The 'creating experience' stuff is already a remixing process --- feel the message brought by the song and enforce it in your map. The style itself is not necessarily lead to overmapping and the only problem you should ask yourself when in doubt if it's overmapped is 'are your arrangement enforcing the message brought by the song?' If yes then hv a go, otherwise think about other possibilities.

oh I never know we have this kind of power, thanks for reminding ;3
which thread mentioned this btw?

wmfchris wrote: 1d5f1w

D33d wrote: 1z2z1f

Map to fit the song. Always. Mapping is not composing--it is creating an experience based on the music. The first and third "styles" are flat-out wrong if the mapper's only considering it like that. Imposing "creativity" where it doesn't fit tends to end up being garbage. This is what mm meant about maps not being art projects. osu! is a game and one's creativity shouldn't detract from the gameplay/what it's supposed to follow.

This falls under my only personal absolute: "Don't be stupid." The most simple solution is not to overmap at all. If you feel too restricted by the music, then drop it and use a different song or learn to map within more constraints.

Nope. Map to fit the song does not imply that mapping in of the first and third ways are not correct. The 'creating experience' stuff is already a remixing process --- feel the message brought by the song and enforce it in your map. The style itself is not necessarily lead to overmapping and the only problem you should ask yourself when in doubt if it's overmapped is 'are your arrangement enforcing the message brought by the song?' If yes then hv a go, otherwise think about other possibilities.

What I mean is that, the mapping shouldn't take liberties and add something just because it sounded cool in the mapper's head. Expressing one's interpretation of the music is fine, as long as it actually fits the music and is executed with the music in mind. However, doing so with complete disregard of the feel of the music... It's kind of common sense. This shouldn't need to be debated too heavily.

Seriously, all that I'm trying to say is, "Be tasteful when adding to the music, otherwise don't add anything at all."

*grabs popcorn* Read through the thread, but I won't have the time to write up a "real" response until Tuesday. The discussion so far is very... interesting... though.

*grabs popcorn* how did you discuss this seriously on april 1st..

really interesting 0,0

In regards to easier difficulties, following strong and key musical points is important. It doesn't matter if the rhythm is in 1/3 or 3/4, represent it correctly. Of course it will prove a challenge to the player, but that's just the nature of the song. Don't flat out ignore a prominent vocal 3/4 if you were consistent up until it appeared, because it will very much confuse people. Breaking consistency to simple patterning actually backfires in some (if not, all) cases. You need to think about how the player will interpret the song. The dominant layer in the music is the thing you need to take note of. It may prove a problem if the song has multiple layers that lattice back and forth. It takes true skill from a mapper to be able to properly represent this through his/her mapping: to these players, sub-layers or other miscellaneous background sounds will usually go unnoticed. Referring back to Aqo's post and his concern with the Sweet Rain osu!mania map, the synth in the background catches the player off-guard because it's not as prominent as the vocals are in that section. That is a case of how choosing a different instrument to represent the song is a poor decision. Alternatively, vocals would've been a better choice. Sticking to the dominant sounds in a selection of music is actually much easier, no matter the presented rhythm, if used correctly, consistently and with conviction. Take rock/metal music for example. Many of the vocals start on red ticks (or offbeats) before downbeats. Sliders that through these have a tendency to prioritize strong vocal accents as opposed to drum beats (dully noting that drum beats are sometimes weak on these downbeats, so this option is better).

I have to agree with both TheVileOne and D33d on their contributions to this discussion. For the former, he had mentioned the clarity of this declaration. We need a better way of instating this rule/guideline (honestly this can't be turned into a rule; I agree with previous arguments) so that s can have some ability and say in modding other 's maps. Leaving the opinions in the hands of the XATs will add more stress to the seemingly overfilled load of their work. Give s something to follow so that they can help enforce these rules, too. This is sort of a reminder of how there's always this struggle between / modding since some s add value to XAT mods or undermine the modding abilities of another because they lack a title. They refuse to listen, and then make the grave mistake of actually ing over a potentially good mod. s have the same right and reason to mod and be able to point out things, just XATs have more authority in enforcing their own judgment, etc etc but that's really far off-topic.

With what D33d has been saying, maps need to fit the song. To create a masterpiece, a map needs to embody both: a map that respects the music and one that, through aesthetics, captures the idea of what the song is intending. The musical part of mapping is purely technical, while aesthetics is purely inspirational. You can't be on one side of the spectrum to create a truly recognizable map, especially with a community so polarized. The only people who would enjoy your maps are those on the same side. What musically inclined people in this discussion fail to see is that sometimes following the strict rhythm of a song can make a map more confusing than it needs to be. Constantly changing rhythms isn't totally enjoyable unless the first layer of a song is suggesting it. This goes back to lolcubes' variance argument and someone else's (I think a few people mentioned this but I can't pinpoint who brought this up) 'mapping to all instruments at one given time' argument. If a map's drum beat only constitutes of a consistent 1/2 rhythm, how fun would that be? Of course this is an extreme example, but my point is it lacks variety. Dynamics are completely lost and the impression of the map falls apart. Sometimes you need to take a step back and think about how to best represent the song. A map that represents every single instrument all at once ends up as a giant clusterfuck of confusion. Everything being equal in of which is stronger in sound is disregarded and makes the map messy. Now, what aesthetically inclined people in this discussion fail to see is that creativity can be expanded upon without sacrificing all of its properties in order to keep the map playable. It's not wrong to be creative in your ways; that's what sets apart one mapper from another. There are things that these people need to realize, though. A map made for its sheer art lacks the musical qualities that make the map for the song. As many people have been saying, you might as well "map without an mp3". It's harsh, but it's true. While art cannot merely be defined because its context varies by person, it has some limitations, that of which is gameplay. Mappers are free to create what they wish, but they are constrained the boundaries of what the song is allowing. Be reasonable with what you are creating. If your aesthetic creations do not embody the rhythm which is given by the song, then the art represents nothing. Adding rhythms that compliment the song in its own way is a form of art some people choose to use. As Sync had mentioned, good mapping won't feel like overmapping. If it goes unnoticed (as backed up by RLC and Nyquill), then there's obviously nothing wrong with it and is just a gimmick that helps convey the impression of the map from the mapper to player better. I may be overestimating the understanding and reasoning of the majority of the community around the seemingly stigmatized "overmapping" debate, however if used correctly, it can actually bring out the best in a song.

In the end, there needs to be a balance of both. Gameplay takes the absolute highest of priority because it's a combination of both divided aspects. Art and music can be one, it's just many at a time fail to accept one and blindly side with the other. Likewise, it is possible to create maps that cater to both parties: a map that clearly adheres to the music's set rhythm with appropriate settings and use of notes/sliders while exhibiting a certain feel or impression. Both are tools that must be used to make a map enjoyable, no? This can be done with no overmapping, or with a small addition that adds to the dynamic of the song. People are afraid of losing their ability to map freely and having their creativity limited, thinking that differences in a map will become less and less apparent. There's so many ways to make yourself stand out as a mapper, and it's through how you represent the combination of both. If people understand their own disposition and the situation more, it's not hard to see that it is possible to have both hand in hand.

So why can't we have both? Both sides of the spectrum just need to be willing to sacrifice a bit of their pride in order to accommodate the other. Musicality can be sacrificed to add dynamic and variance, while aesthetics can be sacrificed for playability and comfort. A map that incorporates both is definitely commendable.

Also just a clear up for some people since I see some misunderstandings, a lot of non-native speakers (namely, those from the Asian regions) use the term "funny" when they mean "fun".

Longest post 2013!

Xakyrie wrote: 3ja2b

What musically inclined people in this discussion fail to see is that sometimes following the strict rhythm of a song can make a map more confusing than it needs to be. Constantly changing rhythms isn't totally enjoyable unless the first layer of a song is suggesting it.

As a musician, part of what I do when mapping is identifying when different lines flow into each other logically. The bigger problem that plagues certain maps is that too much is followed at once--it's about providing variance by switching between different lines and emphasising notable parts of the music, without compromising the overall feel of a section. To me, it seems that the biggest offenders are usually those who think about mapping in a more technical way, worrying about how many rhythms are being filled instead of how impactful the patterns are.

If anything, it's usually the musically-inclined who can pick apart the music and exploit many different rhythms in consistent ways--I suppose that they're also less likely to resort to overmapping because of this, as they know what works that's already in the music. Additionally, musical people would probably have a better idea of what to "overmap" when simplifying patterns. Sometimes, simplification works out better if it feels steady enough.

Ultimately, the most assured way to gauge how fittingness of overmapping is simply to play the map.

irritatingly funny how people think your map is overmapped yet you're only making notes follow sounds without having to force sliders there >.>
Taiko btw, just saying my content \o

D33d wrote: 1z2z1f

As a musician, part of what I do when mapping is identifying when different lines flow into each other logically. The bigger problem that plagues certain maps is that too much is followed at once--it's about providing variance by switching between different lines and emphasising notable parts of the music, without compromising the overall feel of a section. To me, it seems that the biggest offenders are usually those who think about mapping in a more technical way, worrying about how many rhythms are being filled instead of how impactful the patterns are.

If anything, it's usually the musically-inclined who can pick apart the music and exploit many different rhythms in consistent ways--I suppose that they're also less likely to resort to overmapping because of this, as they know what works that's already in the music. Additionally, musical people would probably have a better idea of what to "overmap" when simplifying patterns. Sometimes, simplification works out better if it feels steady enough.

Ultimately, the most assured way to gauge how fittingness of overmapping is simply to play the map.

I believe I mentioned this in my post. Regardless, I agree. When it comes to musically representing a song, it's about choosing the appropriate instruments to emphasize. This helps the player understand the map with the use of consistency and the appropriate transition techniques (switching between different instruments). Though don't forget the musical aspect of mapping is more technical than anything (this excludes analytical mappers who actually interpret slider direction, flow, techniques, etc). As long as mappers can distinguish how to pick and choose between dominant and sub-dominant instruments/layers, the creativity awaits.

In any case, those who are more artistically inclined need to learn a bit of the ways of musically inclined people. Learn from how they pick apart maps. Vice versa to learn from each other and all mutually benefit. Fittingness can really only be judged on a person by person basis, meaning to judge the map one must play it as you said. The judgment should be valued no matter what title the has, however. Of course, XATs have the final ruling as they may, and I say this with delicate care, know more than regular s. I just hope that with this amendment, more people open up to equal 's ideas, judgment and opinions.

those wrote: 2f131h

Both have elements, CXu P:

I'm kinda curious, for the music, my map is more like undermapped (I'm very sure with this! For example, 00:18:741 (1,2) - before you call this random 1/4,m you'd better know i could spam 1/4 there and they fit the music perfectly). Also though i don't like to put such words.... if you don't like, try map a better one.



People, aka, well, players.

Maybe apply this rule to all currently ranked and approved maps and see which one you would have to unrank because of this rule.

I imagine there'd be a lot fan favourite maps gone now.

Maybe you should reconsider.

Guys guys let us here what Charles wanted in the first place.

Charles wants what the definitive meaning is of overmapping to be more lenient. He is not, per se, trying to say that overmapping is bad yada yada, but rather trying to get both sides of the argument to come to . This is because unranking of maps recently for reasons outside of ranking criteria has occured really frequently.

We're not here to try to argue with each other about mapping ideals.

...

But still

NatsumeRin wrote: 2v6x1m

People, aka, well, players.

MAP 80 BPM WITH 1/16 DEATH STREAMS

Seems no one saw it so I post again

Charles' position:Overmap is not allowed in any time.(Overmap's definition is any slider start/end/circle/spinner end not touch any sound in music even it's a 1/2 or 1/1)

Community's position:Overmap is okay if it is
1.an Insane diff
2.Fun/Fit(subjective thing)

Seems that alomst (I am not dare to say exactly) no one agrees with charles' rule which doesn't allow mappers do any overmap.