23:20 Kodora: o hi
23:20 D33d: Sup.
23:22 Kodora: Do you have so free time to discuss something?
23:22 D33d: Depends on how much discusson's needed.
23:23 Kodora: I think it would be nice to discuss theory aspects via PM (feel free to post thread if you want) instead of posting in thread
23:23 Kodora: Its about new SV changes
23:23 D33d: I know.
23:23 D33d: I don't want to talk about it much, because I've said all that I wanted in the thread.
23:23 Kodora: I understand fact that not all people agree with it.
23:23 Kodora: I understand fact that not all people even like any SV manipulation
23:24 D33d: I get that those things are fun to some people, but it's about compromise and not using nasty traps.
23:24 Kodora: We can do a nice compromise. I discussed with Garven before about this.
23:24 D33d: Yeah he'd mentioned that.
23:25 D33d: I only argued my case so intensely because I've seen all of this stuff loads of times and it's never worked for me.
23:25 D33d: That and I've never seen a case which couldn't have been replaced by something else.
23:26 D33d: It's not between us anyway. It's between the ers and peppy, which is why all of the further discussion was deleted.
23:26 Kodora: As Garven said pm to me, using any SV changes need enough well experience at mapping, and really only few mappers can do it, especially with highest one.
23:26 D33d: Basically that. Discretion and limits are important.
23:26 Kodora: But, it can be done well case-by-case
23:27 D33d: The problem is that it becomes extremely hard to justify.
23:27 Kodora: All rules have exceptions. We cant absolute anything in this universe.
23:27 Kodora: Lets just do one simple compromise:
23:27 D33d: Some of those examples had a nice effect, but contrasted too much and too suddenly.
23:28 D33d: osu! rules can be broken in some cases, but rules are there for a reason.
23:28 Kodora: It wont be implimented in editor, but will be allowed via manual editing .osz for specified cases. If any BAT member will disagree with it, it will be popped over not reasonable usage with constructive suggestions about good replacement.
23:29 Kodora: Or unranked
23:29 D33d: Really, anybody can do that already, right?
23:29 D33d: It's only an editor limitation and, since the use cases are special, people can invoke them when they really want to.
23:30 D33d: I agree with it being allowed at all if it's really effective.
23:31 Kodora: Not really. Only few people know how it can be done. If people can do it in well, reasonable and playable well and playability of this usage will be confirmed by qualified member it will be added to official list of ranked maps.
23:31 Kodora: Thats my idea how it will works.
23:31 D33d: I thought that was always the case.
23:31 D33d: Remind me if there's a rule against it.
23:32 Kodora: We just going to cancel one limitation for specifical case on a legit way, nothing more.
23:32 D33d: Honestly, I'm happy as long as it stays out of the editor.
23:33 Kodora: In fact we really have no any rules about "do not set speedchanges over current editor limit" (yes it can be done without manual editing .osz)
23:33 D33d: Yes, speedchanges can be made with BPM changes.
23:33 Kodora: But to make it clean i think would be nice to have an official exception.
23:33 Kodora: I mean not this.
23:34 Kodora: Speedchanges over current limit can be done just by switching to osu!mania editor moe.
23:34 D33d: Well that's still not allowed and all, but if a song actualy changes its speed, BPM can be changed like that anyway.
23:34 D33d: I still thought that there was always a caveat for it.
23:34 Kodora: *mode
23:34 D33d: Oh okay.
23:34 Kodora: I dont like any BPM manipulations honestly
23:34 D33d: They tend to be bad yeah, if they're done to force something.
23:36 D33d: Mappers only need to understand that extreme gimmicks are likely to be modded out.
23:36 Kodora: One important thing: this discussion was started again because with new osumania editor we can avoid this rule. So, to make it clean and avoid any missunderstanding, i think would be nice to follow Garven's suggestion.
23:36 D33d: I.e. it doesn't have to be a huge issue if massive changes aren't allowed by a BAT.
23:37 D33d: I think that people really need to treat standard and mania as completely separate games.
23:37 Kodora: Its a good compromise what already accepted several BATs.
23:37 D33d: Pretty much.
23:39 Kodora: If there are any BATs what will be against speedchanges usage they have all powers to pop/unrank abusely map over this reason.
23:39 Kodora: Like they exactly doing it now for other problematic maps
23:39 D33d: Exactly.
23:40 D33d: Keeping the case as it is now, we won't have too much abuse and people can still go out of their way if they want.
23:40 D33d: Thanks for being forthcoming about it.
23:41 Kodora: So, you agree with Garven's propose?
23:43 Kodora: I'll just edit first post according to it
23:44 D33d: Yeah I agree.
23:45 Kodora: Then nice. Thanks for discussion, i'll post log :p
23:45 D33d: Sorry for getting so fired up too. I saw all of the bickering and kind of lost it.
23:45 D33d: Plus, I gave all of the reasons I could, so I know that I can leave it be.
23:46 Kodora: :3
