We can prevent similar diff name drama in the future. If we do nothing, nothing changes. It's a good chance to search for the cause. I found it in the rule itself and I believe it should be removed for the following reasons / explanation.

1. Now there are other rules that fulfill the same purpose
   
   First, let's take a look at old discussions to understand the original purpose of this rule. (thanks -Mo-!)
   https://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/community/forums/topics/889616
   We can infer that the original purpose was to make the map's difficulty visible with progressive diff names, because there was not a decent Star Rate system. Diff names had to be understandable for every average human player. Custom diff names solely consisted of names like [Rin][Skystar] had special meaning, but new players cannot understand the meaning and the actual difficulty from there.
   
   This is now covered with two other RC rules as I stated. According to them, we can only use a custom diff name in a top diff (and something similar), and the other diff names in the spread must include Easy, Normal, Hard, Insane... or something similar.
   These rules already prevent confusing names. They fulfill the original purpose. So we probably don't need more that state the same thing again.
   
   
   This still includes my presumption so much

   
   ・"peppy stated already that difficulties with just an name are totally unrankable"
   →This is true, and that was the original rule. Maybe the person who decided to add exceptions on the rule just did interpret it arbitrarily. But we cannot discuss anything if you brought it. I want to respect the recent decision / veto mediation as a general view today. In addition, it was 6 years ago. I'm going to ask him about this.
   
   
   ・Usually people just say "this rule is made to prevent diff names like "[Rin][Skystar][RLC] as you see in these mapsets".
   →You cannot see any reasons stated why they are to be prevented after all.
   
   Second, my point also applies to most arguments of those who think diff names exactly the same as a name are acceptable.
   
   ・They may say "acceptable according to 'Words that happen to be names are acceptable within difficulty names as long as they relate to the song'"
   →There is the same rule. "A beatmapset's custom difficulty naming must follow a common theme or pattern related to the song or difficulty" as I wrote.
   
   Therefore, other two rules can play a role instead of this rule and should fulfill these possibly-original purposes. If the rule only means these, then it's totally unnecessary.
2. The rule is actually misleading / confusing now
   
   The way people interpret this rule varies too much. Plus they tend to extend the rule or add exceptions quickly. The rule tend to mean more than what it was made for.
   That's why I think it is now confusing people and we should remove it rather than unnecessary. I guess you will deeply understand this when you keep track of the discussion below, although that cannot be helped with current wording of this rule imo.
   
   ・One example is "it applies only if the diff name = mapset host name" by saying "Fiery's Rage" would be fine."
   →At least, we cannot clearly judge it from the words of this rule. I believe we cannot infer that from the possibly original purposes above.
   
   ・Another example is "There is a clear difference between the name 'fieryrage' and 'Fiery Rage'" argument.
   →People take the rule just "literally" and should forget the purpose. Objectively, it still indicates a name if you are not biased. I haven't seen such evidence that the spelling correctness. They completely ignore the essence. Moreover, if you use the "this rule is made to prevent diff names like "[Rin][Skystar][RLC] as you see in these mapsets" argument at the same time, there is a self-contradiction because Natsume Rin → Rin would be fine in this context.

Found some sources for you
https://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/community/forums/posts/2962715

-Mo- wrote: n314z

Found some sources for you
https://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/community/forums/posts/2962715

Thank you so much! I improved my reasoning based on these.

(edited first post)

name alone should not be the difficulty.

No exceptions. "Fiery Rage" should NOT be allowed as that is just circumventing the rule.

I don't even understand why this discussion is occurring. Is it about simplifying the rules? Because the existence of the rule mentioned still seems like it has no harm being there.

peppy wrote: 73101g

name alone should not be the difficulty.

No exceptions. "Fiery Rage" should NOT be allowed as that is just circumventing the rule.

I don't even understand why this discussion is occurring. Is it about simplifying the rules? Because the existence of the rule mentioned still seems like it has no harm being there.

Thank you peppy!

Question
1. Is there any reason to prohibit solely name related diff names? Isn't it fine if they are top diff and people don't have to understand the difficulty through diff name? I looked for it as written in the first post but the reasons did not make sense now thanks to improved automatic SD system and other two diff name rules.

2. In Fiery Rage case, he claimed that this diff name is not name but regular words. Do you still consider regular words that happen to be the same as some names unrankable? Also we cannot draw a clear line considering there might be a random regular word name, such as Smoke. So this rule is obscure at this point.

Opinion
3. If RC don't allow any exceptions as you originally stated and it is not a guideline but a "rule", there should not be "Words that happen to be names are acceptable within difficulty names as long as they relate to the song". It is clearly a different idea.

4. This time, aka Fiery Rage case, several NAT and BN considered acceptable by clearly saying here.
https://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/beatmapsets/1038902/discussion/-/generalAll#/1362338
(the veto mediation is done by pishifat, Bibbity Bill, neonat, Mafumafu, Crissa, greenhue, Zelq, Andrea, Nozhomi, Uberzolik, Cris-, and hypercyte)
That might mean this is how current consider this rule and pretty different from yours. This discussion is meaningful to make things clear.

5. There IS harm because the rule doesn't mean anything now if based on the recent decision by NAT and BN and misused / misunderstood widely. I stated this as reason 2.
If based on your idea and pimp's, this opinion makes no sense though.

If it's obvious the is trying to circumvent then it should be disallowed.

Difficulty names SHOULD DESCRIBE DIFFICULTY.

Adding one's name is fine, but it should be in addition to DESCRIBING DIFFICULTY.

There's basically two options:

- Using Easy Normal Hard Insane
- Use thened names based on the song or beatmap or game mode

Optionally:

- For guest difficulties, prefix one's name

peppy for NAT!

peppy wrote: 73101g

There's basically two options:

- Using Easy Normal Hard Insane
- Use thened names based on the song or beatmap or game mode

Having custom name on highest difficulty or multiple higher difficulties with same level is also okay tho.

Link to rule https://imgur-archive.ppy.sh/discord/585117780693614627-650725685333196833-unknown.png
This is written in RC

so having custom name here on top difficulty is okay

As long as it sounds like a difficulty name. Not a name.

peppy wrote: 73101g

If it's obvious the is trying to circumvent then it should be disallowed.

Difficulty names SHOULD DESCRIBE DIFFICULTY.

Adding one's name is fine, but it should be in addition to DESCRIBING DIFFICULTY.

Question + Opinion
1. The problem is that there is a huge gap between your interpretation and current NAT / BN.
You don't want to allow any name related diff name (including on purpose) regardless of whether it expresses the song / pattern, while according to the recent mediation, they think any diff name is acceptable as long as somewhat related to the song. They allowed a name "obvious the is trying to circumvent" because of "exceptions" as written in RC. It's worth explaining some reasons and share ideas with them, or such diff names just get into ranked again.

Currently, it seems that we have not seen specific reasons why we have to prohibit only name related diff name. I could not come up one so I'm here to propose deleting the rule.

Acceptable
- Automatic Star Rate system shows a map's difficulty already. No longer necessary.
- We are allowed to use custom name only in top diff or similar according to other two rules. New players can choose diffs easily enough.
- There isn't any difference between song-related name and mapper's name-related name. They both doesn't tell the map's difficulty.
- (weak reason but can be creative / cool / funny)

Not acceptable
- Inequality by pimp
https://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/community/forums/topics/1012650
Other reasons I came up with / found no longer make much sense now in my opinion. But I want to ask more opinions from "not acceptable" side to make judges better. It might be just my incompetence.



Opinion
2. I wasn't going to mention, but since hopefully you came here, I'd propose something so much different from my original post.

Right now this rule is not worded sufficiently to express the original intention: ban all name(the person who mapped?) related diff names without any exceptions.
For example, "If it's obvious the is trying to circumvent then it should be disallowed" should have been included. It's not written clearly and too difficult to infer from the current words. Actually, the recent mediation chose completely acceptable because they think Fiery Rage is not name anymore.

Also the exceptions must be removed according to your thought. Someone interpreted it as acceptable and reworded / added exceptions based on his interpretation, but it's wrong and encouraged misusing the rule.
So I personally think you can freely reword and strengthen this rule to actually enforce it. It's for sure not working as you intended right now. Looking for a suitable choice through discussion here is one choice though.



Opinion
3. Therefore, we should discuss if we respect the original intention "not acceptable" by you or if we continue the current idea "acceptable". I think changes in this RC rule are required in both scenario to make things clear or enforce it.
Anyway, I would like to gather as many opinions as possible now from many people. Thank you again for taking time for my proposal. It's really precious for me.

The exception is there to stop people being dicks about it. "Someone has a name Hard so you can't use Hard in your difficulty".

Is this rocket science? I feel like this whole conversation is still beyond comprehension.

names.
Should.
Only.
Be.
In.
The.
Difficulty.
For.
Guest.
Mapper.
Purposes.

There's one very salient reason to disallow these kind of difficulty names: confusion.

Not everybody who plays/witnesses a map has the full social/knowledge scope that would allow them to immediately parse that "Fiery Rage" refers to a difficulty name and/or a mapper. Intentioned or none, allowing things like this that are (deliberately) close to existing names just provides a vector for confusion to fester. The rule that this proposal aims to dismantle has clearly been made to promote clarity, and that's the kind of spirit we should be aiming to preserve.

Besides, popular top-end maps are sometimes referred to via their diffnames, which is precisely where this would compound even further. There's little to be gained by allowing this, bar a trend of "cameo" diffnames a la Kick Me (as mentioned in the OP) which will only serve to confuse players.

I'd note that even "Fiery Rage" is perfectly fine, if it's alongside "Burning Hell" and "Sizzling Coal".

This would be my line of reasoning: if the original (s) did not exist and someone else went to create the map, would it make sense to use those difficulty names?

If I were the one to map Kakuzetsu Thanatos and I called my diffs "Pokie", "RLC", and "Skystar", I would have very little reasoning for doing so. "Rin" you could stretch I guess if it was on its own, but mixed in with those other diff names it would be even more confusing.

If I mapped Banned Forever and called my diff "Nogard", again I would have very little reasoning.

If I mapped Scarlet Rose and called my diff "0108 style", if the original didn't exist then this also makes little no no sense.

Difficulty name "Blue Dragon" for the song called Blue Dragon makes sense, it's a reflection from the song title, and literally anyone else could reasonably do it.

After skimming through the lyrics of Kick Me, calling the difficulty "Fiery Rage" does make some sense, and anyone could reasonably come along and map the same song to the same difficulty name.

I could agree to have absolutely freedom on having the hardest diff as custom as you like, as long as its reason is well explained in the Beatmap Page. (The reasons behind the Custom Name)
But why would you like to put a name in a Normal Diff like... is that really neccessary?

That or make Expert Diffs customizable since.. you have to be an "Expert" to play'em.

I think this rule should work for E/N/H/I Mapsets, the Extra content is always 'Extra' Content.

Expert is already customisable. That's already baked in the ranking criteria.

We already have solid rules. I don't think any change is required, beyond possibly a clarification that the exception is not there to allow certain s the ability to their names; it's there to DISALLOW people camping commonplace words as names then bitching about people creating difficulties using their name.

Thank you everyone for giving me new insights! I'd reply to each.

[Opinion]
As I mentioned in the previous post, there should be a problem in this RC rule. If we allow Fiery Rage like the recent veto mediation, then this rule doesn't play any role and should be removed to avoid "mis"understanding. If we never allow intentionally mapper's name related diff names for some reason, then this rule/exceptions should be reworded to enforce the idea actually. According to this rule, Fiery Rage has entered qualified section, which you won't allow. This rule is not working as you think.
Objectively, I think we must consider this as a major premise in the first place.

peppy wrote: 73101g

The exception is there to stop people being dicks about it. "Someone has a name Hard so you can't use Hard in your difficulty".

Is this rocket science? I feel like this whole conversation is still beyond comprehension.

names.Should.Only.Be.In.The.Difficulty.For.Guest.Mapper.Purposes.

[Keep]
[Whether rewording is necessary or not] (not my main point for now though)
The exception doesn't mention whether "intentionally close to name" diff name is acceptable or not. It actually confused modders in Fiery Rage case; you think unacceptable but the veto participants think "completely" acceptable. There is already a difference in interpretation, so that's the problem with current words of the rule. I hope it's comprehensive.

[Whether we should remove this rule]
And is there specific reasons why we have to prohibit only diff name?

Ephemeral wrote: b493z

There's one very salient reason to disallow these kind of difficulty names: confusion.

Not everybody who plays/witnesses a map has the full social/knowledge scope that would allow them to immediately parse that "Fiery Rage" refers to a difficulty name and/or a mapper. Intentioned or none, allowing things like this that are (deliberately) close to existing names just provides a vector for confusion to fester. The rule that this proposal aims to dismantle has clearly been made to promote clarity, and that's the kind of spirit we should be aiming to preserve.

Besides, popular top-end maps are sometimes referred to via their diffnames, which is precisely where this would compound even further. There's little to be gained by allowing this, bar a trend of "cameo" diffnames a la Kick Me (as mentioned in the OP) which will only serve to confuse players.

[Keep]
[Whether we should remove this rule]
Confusion might have been a main reason, but now I think it's no longer effective enough because
1. How do name related diff names confuse players? If you mean they don't provide any information about map's difficulty, then other ordinary words also don't and diff names no longer have to tell the map's difficulty because of automatic Star Rate system and being allowed only in top diff or similar.
2. As I mentioned, whether a custom diff name refers to a ordinary word or name related doesn't matter in that they both are basically they don't provide any information about the map's difficulty like Expert, Ultra, Extreme etc. Then isn't it just fine if a diff name has a relation to the song regardless of relation to mapper's name? Why we have to stick to whether name related or not when a ordinary word?

peppy wrote: 73101g

I'd note that even "Fiery Rage" is perfectly fine, if it's alongside "Burning Hell" and "Sizzling Coal".

[Whether we should remove this rule]
The reason why you think is acceptable, is based on other rule, "A beatmapset's custom difficulty naming must follow a common theme or pattern related to the song or difficulty.

-Mo- wrote: n314z

This would be my line of reasoning: if the original (s) did not exist and someone else went to create the map, would it make sense to use those difficulty names?

If I were the one to map Kakuzetsu Thanatos and I called my diffs "Pokie", "RLC", and "Skystar", I would have very little reasoning for doing so. "Rin" you could stretch I guess if it was on its own, but mixed in with those other diff names it would be even more confusing.

If I mapped Banned Forever and called my diff "Nogard", again I would have very little reasoning.

If I mapped Scarlet Rose and called my diff "0108 style", if the original didn't exist then this also makes little no no sense.

Difficulty name "Blue Dragon" for the song called Blue Dragon makes sense, it's a reflection from the song title, and literally anyone else could reasonably do it.

After skimming through the lyrics of Kick Me, calling the difficulty "Fiery Rage" does make some sense, and anyone could reasonably come along and map the same song to the same difficulty name.

[Keep?]
[Whether we should remove this rule]
The reason why you think is fine is based on other rule, "A beatmapset's custom difficulty naming must follow a common theme or pattern related to the song or difficulty.
So you think, any diff name is acceptable as long as related to the song/pattern, regardless of whether intentionally/unintentionally related to name and no one has mapped the song of which the original mapper(s) did not exist?

DaxMasterix wrote: 2e2z2r

I could agree to have absolutely freedom on having the hardest diff as custom as you like, as long as its reason is well explained in the Beatmap Page. (The reasons behind the Custom Name)
But why would you like to put a name in a Normal Diff like... is that really neccessary?

That or make Expert Diffs customizable since.. you have to be an "Expert" to play'em.

I think this rule should work for E/N/H/I Mapsets, the Extra content is always 'Extra' Content.

[Remove? Neutral?]
So you think in top diff, any diff name is acceptable as long as related to the song/pattern, regardless of whether intentionally/unintentionally related to name? Would you mind explaining any reasons to it or attack the other side?

peppy wrote: 73101g

We already have solid rules. I don't think any change is required, beyond possibly a clarification that the exception is not there to allow certain s the ability to their names; it's there to DISALLOW people camping commonplace words as names then bitching about people creating difficulties using their name.

[Keep]
[Whether rewording is necessary or not] (not my main point for now though)
Look at first [Opinion] in this post. The rule about custom name related diff names is now not solid. If it were solid and clear, there would not have been huge discussion, but just "unrankable according to this RC rule" had to work. There should not have been such subjective/arbitrary discussion on the veto. Moreover, this rule didn't DISALLOW people camping commonplace words as names.
We should decide to remove it or to add more clarification to solve this. Since I haven't seen good specific reasons to disallow "only" name related diffs, I proposed removing. But I might focus on the latter idea when I'm convinced because this is your game and should reflect your views above all.

I'm sorry but I can't understand your replies, there's too many words and I don't know what [Keep] and stuff means. My head hurts.

aa sorry please ignore [] things

What I wanted to ask was "is there specific reasons why we have to prohibit only mapper's name related diff names?"

I've resolved the map in question. No rule change needs to occur. This is silly.

BaAR_Vendel wrote: 3q6b2k

What I wanted to ask was "is there specific reasons why we have to prohibit only mapper's name related diff names?"

Because if you made a map and called the difficulty [BaAR_Vendel], that's not describing the difficulty, that's just you placing your name on the map where it shouldn't be.

edit: Didn't realise we locked