As you all might have noticed, I have recently been working to implement ScoreV2 for Taiko. This will be used for the TWC 2017.

I'm opening this thread up because I'm interested in discussing and hearing your thoughts about ScoreV2. I will be working with people to implement changes to make sure the scoring system works well for everyone.


Here are a few changes as talking points about the current Taiko ScoreV2 system:







And please _please_ don't spam me with PMs telling me to read a comment in here ;___;.

what was wrong with the old scoring system

why do we need a new one to replace a system that was perfectly fine

i don't understand the reasoning behind score v2 at all

n1doking wrote: 375h21

what was wrong with the old scoring system

why do we need a new one to replace a system that was perfectly fine

i don't understand the reasoning behind score v2 at all

Probably just to fit in with the other world cups, it's true that we don't need this.

i was gonna write a much longer reply but yeah, really everything in here seems unnecessary without some reasoning of why things even needed to be changed at all. "trying to make things similar to other modes" isn't really a valid answer.

i have very mixed feelings on requiring finishers to be hit. from a tournament standpoint, you're losing out on lots of points already if you don't hit them (assuming they're not required), so causing a miss for not hitting them just seems like overkill. even simple stuff like a finisher at the end of a stream could be killer in a tournament with this change.

drumroll and spinner stuff is meh, i don't like breaking combo for missing either of these, but they should not really be an issue. they can break certain kinds of maps though as well, especially if TWC ends up having any gimmick picks with short spinners, you'd have to be really careful selecting maps.

HP system is just... why is this necessary? just because the other modes have it?

i just don't feel like anything introduced here really needed to be changed. i also don't want TWC to be a testing ground for a broken score system so these things really need to be addressed before TWC happens.

EDIT: also the notice being short on what's actually going to be in score v2 and what isn't can possibly change stuff for team selection, so if things are changing back and forth before the tourney starts, it could cause problems for some countries. because of this it might be best to stick with score v1 for this year or set a date to finalize everything and make no more changes to the system, and make that date well before registrations end.

The only beneficial thing I've seen from Scorev2 is making spinners worth a flat 300 so Hard Rock SS is equal to a Hidden SS which has been a problem for a long time in tournaments.

Having HP drain sounds like a dumb idea on paper, a lot of maps have large difficulty spikes which would results in players failing in situations they normally wouldn't be.

In a tournament setting like TWC, I see if you don't hit finishers properly it counts as a miss in a positive way. There won't be loved mapped like Looming Shadow or other obscure loved/Unranked maps. although maps like Da x10 have been. Counting it as a miss is a bit harsh but I don't know how harsh a miss punishes you in scorev2.

Drum rolls being forced to 1/4 and counting as a 300/miss is plain stupid. Sure, you might implement a way to change the tick rate but on older fast maps that may be used could cause some issues with it being extremely difficult to hit all of the ticks. Another issues is that if you slightly miss time the head of it and don't realize it in time, you could be tick locking yourself out by hitting between ticks and it being almost impossible to get back into it.

Spinners counting as a miss if not completed shouldn't be an issue during TWC. There is a very little chance that there will be maps with ninja ones, it is completely your fault if you don't complete it and are punished accordingly.

What I see is that, Scorev2 is very punishing to players who don't play perfectly every time. From finishers counting as misses to the 1 Million score cap.

n1doking wrote: 375h21

what was wrong with the old scoring system

why do we need a new one to replace a system that was perfectly fine

i don't understand the reasoning behind score v2 at all

the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)

Garpo wrote: 2p5a

The only beneficial thing I've seen from Scorev2 is making spinners worth a flat 300 so Hard Rock SS is equal to a Hidden SS which has been a problem for a long time in tournaments.

Having HP drain sounds like a dumb idea on paper, a lot of maps have large difficulty spikes which would results in players failing in situations they normally wouldn't be.

the default taiko HP system doesnt make inherent sense, though. although it being overtuned (as said), I don't mind this kind of HP at all. it works for mania, though works for taiko, too.

In a tournament setting like TWC, I see if you don't hit finishers properly it counts as a miss in a positive way. There won't be loved mapped like Looming Shadow or other obscure loved/Unranked maps. although maps like Da x10 have been. Counting it as a miss is a bit harsh but I don't know how harsh a miss punishes you in scorev2.

yeah well, if people wouldn't skin their finisher objects to normal objects and simply ignore a crucial mechanic on beatmaps that are designed in a way that they are way more tricky with playing them but absolutely trivial without (see looming shadows or no money down), this wouldnt need to be a thing. but finishers are a gameplay mechanic - and with old scores, they are entirely optional to do. ignoring mechanics that have been put with full intention to be ignored at all shouldn't be a thing. Hitting finishers should be easier now - or at least, it does actually show you hitting them, as the leniency didn't change (30ms right now I think?)

Drum rolls being forced to 1/4 and counting as a 300/miss is plain stupid. Sure, you might implement a way to change the tick rate but on older fast maps that may be used could cause some issues with it being extremely difficult to hit all of the ticks. Another issues is that if you slightly miss time the head of it and don't realize it in time, you could be tick locking yourself out by hitting between ticks and it being almost impossible to get back into it.

drum rolls being 1/2 on high BPM doesnt make sense either. drum rolls turning to 1/8 on DT neither. Having them on 1/4 is the most proper way to handle this (and making them 1/3 if tickrate is 3, which is hopefully to come, I already brought that up). Ticks are indeed difficult to hit because of some weird note locking, however, you dont have to hit all ticks. a completion is reached with hitting 30% of the slider's ticks. only if you hit less than 30%, you gain a miss. although we need to look into this note locking, I think it also affects spinners.

Spinners counting as a miss if not completed shouldn't be an issue during TWC. There is a very little chance that there will be maps with ninja ones, it is completely your fault if you don't complete it and are punished accordingly.

even with, imo crying about ninja spinners is really just crying, because completing them isnt even remotely hard and ignoring them should be as punished as finishers (same reason)

What I see is that, Scorev2 is very punishing to players who don't play perfectly every time. From finishers counting as misses to the 1 Million score cap.
that's the idea. there is the same accuracy/combo weighting as in mania right now (iirc? don't quote me here). Taiko relies less on combo and tiering score increase now - and taiko always punished those who don't play perfectly every time, so this isn't really a concern

All in all, I think doing this is the step into the right direction, HP drain is harsh and can't behave like in osu!standard (dunno if it considers NCs, if yes, it shouldn't), OD ratings stayed the same and I think we didn't really talk or look into mods (HD, HR, DT, HDHR) yet, so you shouldn't judge that just yet, however preliminary suggestions always work out.


The argument wheter we need this or not is uuuh, let's say that Taiko is probably the most lenient game mode in all of its aspect but hit accuracy (has the harshest hit windows of all game modes), however Taiko allows you to ignore pretty much over the half of its mechanics and just faceroll through all the normal notes. ScoreV2 gives the other half of the mechanics a way higher weightening, changes how maps play and reduce the cheesing through game mechanics (here again: SKINS) and make the maps and its elements be played the way they are supposed to be played.

i don't think anyone who would be playing in a world cup or tournament setting, knowing that finishers need to be hit for higher score, would be using a skin that ignores them. they'd already be screwing themselves over by doing that.

For maps that make use of finishers like looming shadows do, people rather skin away the finishers than trying to get the extra score, because the odds of missing is way too high.

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

For maps that make use of finishers like looming shadows do, people rather skin away the finishers than trying to get the extra score, because the odds of missing is way too high.

i can see that for difficult sections because i do struggle reading some finisher spam sections, but still, what if there were 100 other finishers in the map that were easy to read? you'd be missing out on the easy score bonus for those 100 notes, which essentially is the same as missing in the tricky part and not getting your combo back for 100 notes.

i just don't think anyone who goes for score in a tournament setting like this would be using a no finisher skin. only really targeting this because it's the only argument you really brought forth.

That 1000000 max score would be a pretty fun mod
however i think it would be a bad idea to be the main score system

EDIT : ok i thought mandatory big notes and survival hp was a glitch back then so eeeeee please do not do that or don't call this game a TnT simulator anymore

but like i said if it's only a mod for some tournaments then it would be pretty cool, but not as the main score system because of the fact that (almost) all of the maps have be created for the current score system and loooooooot of stuff would be unplayable with this system

I will probably quit if this gets though

20% of the unranked maps will be unplayable because of the finisher rule (katacheh maps for example)

the finisher rule is also really harsh to 2 finger players, all the more with the new ranking criteria

2 finger players cant hit a finisher on a stream

animexamera wrote: 201b6o

I will probably quit if this gets though

20% of the unranked maps will be unplayable because of the finisher rule (katacheh maps for example)

the finisher rule is also really harsh to 2 finger players, all the more with the new ranking criteria

2 finger players cant hit a finisher on a stream

I REALLY wonder how mania people do that witchcraft. also who cares about unranked maps?

Savoiyare wrote: 6y2r5b

That 1000000 max score would be a pretty fun mod
however i think it would be a bad idea to be the main score system

care to elaborate why?

Catgirl wrote: a4y1r

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

For maps that make use of finishers like looming shadows do, people rather skin away the finishers than trying to get the extra score, because the odds of missing is way too high.

i can see that for difficult sections because i do struggle reading some finisher spam sections, but still, what if there were 100 other finishers in the map that were easy to read? you'd be missing out on the easy score bonus for those 100 notes, which essentially is the same as missing in the tricky part and not getting your combo back for 100 notes.

i just don't think anyone who goes for score in a tournament setting like this would be using a no finisher skin. only really targeting this because it's the only argument you really brought forth.

but they do use no finisher skins already. this is all speculation. the sheer option to cheese through this game mechanic shouldnt be a thing in the first place. sure some maps are not designed to work with that change, but I think none of these are ranked.

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

I REALLY wonder how mania people do that witchcraft.

Why should that factor into a scoring system for taiko?

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

also who cares about unranked maps?

You use looming shadow as an argument for finishers but it's not like that's ranked lol.

please don't make drumrolls and spinners more than what they are: "useless" bonus points.


I'd argue the same for finishers but I don't even want to argue about this.

Invective wrote: 2f2z4m

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

also who cares about unranked maps?

You use looming shadow as an argument for finishers but it's not like that's ranked lol.

better be only ranked taiko maps in TWC this year, there are plenty of them so it shouldn't be a problem right? since unranked maps are unimportant

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)

Thats literally the point of a BONUS, finishers/sliders/spinners are supposed to be a score bonus, not an unavoidable part of the map lol. Like wth is the point of maximizing a score in a mode with bonus elements........

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

also who cares about unranked maps?

Dumbest shit i've seen, how far are you from reality lol. You know they recently added a loved section that actually allows unranked maps to get a scoreboard??

Why are you even answering on that thread tho, you obviously don't know shit about the gamemode.

After discussions made on #taiko channel I have come to write my opinions about this scoreV2 system.

About these finisher hits: That's unneccessary. This forces to play taiko with 4 fingers even there are so many index finger players. This is important because of the finishers after 1/4 or 1/6 streams (which are seen from convert maps) will be unneccesarily hard to hit for 2 finger players. Score change is fair, but having a miss on a single hit is not.

Drum rolls: Not unlogical, but have some mistakes in my opinion. Because this makes sliders harder than streams which can be hit with 100 points. If you miss the first tick on this slider, it will be very hard to hit them right again because the ticks are more difficult to hit than the original notes.

Spinners: Bye bye loved maps.

Health: Not fair. Because if you miss in a stream, (for me anyway, maybe I'm doing it wrong) it's very hard to recover in a stream without a break about 10 or 15ms to hit another note, which causes unconsistency unneccesarily. For example: In a 200 BPM song, if it has +-70ms (which is a 140ms gap, OD 6.5), you will miss every note in a 1/4 stream because the song will have 75 ms gap between these 2 notes (think of it as 1 note and it will be 37.5 ms) and you miss it automatically. Mania does not have it hence it has this HP system. Taiko maps are a note in a flat line and doesn't work as mania as. So Taiko can't have this system in my opinion.

Nofool wrote: 5r1252

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

also who cares about unranked maps?

Dumbest shit i've seen, how far are you from reality lol. You know they recently added a loved section that actually allows unranked maps to get a scoreboard??

Why are you even answering on that thread tho, you obviously don't know shit about the gamemode.

The score system shouldn't be balanced around unrankable maps, ever. That's just retarded.

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)

You see, drumrolls and spinners can be ignored in the original game aswell, although the changes to those objects are mostly reasonable.
However, the planned change to finisher notes is just a poor decision. Even if you hit the finisher note with one key instead of two, you essentially still hit it. Gaining less score from that is a completely fair and reasonable punishment, punishing that with a miss is taking things a bit too far. As frukoyurdakul said, hitting finisher notes at the end of a 1/4 stream or pattern will be just a pain to hit. Don't even start with justifying it with jacks in mania. Taiko isn't mania. Comparing those two modes with eachother is bound to be stupid.

It's understandable you want osu!taiko to be a more unique game, but at this point you are taking the original game's mechanics and throw in a unnecessary and tedious twist for the sake of being different.

Edit: Also agreeing with Nofool about the loved section. Why adding it if you plan on ruining it 3 months later?

in which other than the 1 million max score, the currently listed changes are:
>has starting HP like all other game modes
>sliders (which are drumrolls) and spinners have the same behaviors like those in all other game modes -- except CTB in regards of spinners
>drumrolls and big notes, elements whose purposes are to reward bonus points for more skilled players, become mandatory in reaching the max score

...because it just isn't bearable to let this mode be of enough uniqueness ('uniquity'?) compared to the other modes and it has to be some sort of 'standardized' to the osu! environment, to the other game modes. Taiko that ISN'T Taiko? Might as well ditch the "Taiko" in "osu!Taiko" and rename it to something else.

this new system would definitely fuck up Taiko's current foundations (including but not limited to the Loved maps section) if it ever becomes final, but if you guys want to implement it so very badly, I'd say keep it within official tournaments and ONLY official tournaments, NOT anywhere else. Even if it does get implemented, mappool selection in said tournaments must be WAY MORE stricter and careful in order to comply with the changes that this system brings, although that would 'most probably' (if not 'certainly') need a heck lot of miracles to happen.

---------------------

if anything, I think some other things need to be addressed before issuing any kind of new system in the gameplay, such as the note-locking problem and the HP gain/loss rate correlation (i.e. the difference in marathon maps VS in regular-length maps).

Just from a watching perspective I really think the HP-system of Taiko should stay as it is.
Having teams or players fail due to single spikes during a map or at the end is not desirable, be it from a watching or from a playing perspective.
Since Taiko is the only tapping-oriented gamemode where you can press wrong buttons in a way that throws you out of the mapflow the current way of dealing with HP makes absolute sense as you won't be instantly killed from the sort of common stream of misses and instead evaluated over the course of the whole map.

Also while I agree with the reasons to make finishers an actual part of the gameplay I'm not sure if a miss is the appropriate punishment - maybe a 100 instead?
Even though I'm too bad at Taiko to follow the actual gameplay on screen I always found Taiko tournaments be fairly exciting to watch and part of the reason for that was how the current score system is suited to keep things close.

Well whatever.
No was given for the standard v2 discussion thread so I'm pretty sure in spite of the "discussion thread" smoogi won't read most posts and not reply at all once again.
Kind of futile to post then I suppose.

I'm strongly against Taiko ScoreV2, but why ?

First of all : It's been a while that Drum rolls and Spinners are bonus, and big notes were optionals. This soft system leads to an emergence of a lot of various and uniques playstyle. To this point, I believe there is not a major playstyle proper to taiko, but a lot of various playstyle which all have their strengths and their weakness.

If the bonus aren't referenced as bonus anymore, all thoses playstyle and players will lose the thing that makes them uniques and funny to play, in benefit to a unique mandatory, generic and boring playstyle, that will lead to an overall (big) loss for the game.

Secondary : I'm even more against the new HP system, all of the taiko map since now were designed for the current HP system. I believe that most of the rankeds map can easily switch on the ScoreV2 HP System, but lot of unranked map has been made for fun, challenge, and troll and does not fit the ScoreV2 HP System.

But why am I talking about unranked map since no one cares ?

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

also who cares about unranked maps?

Here you can see how many ranked map there aproximatly are for some difficulties.
http://puu.sh/tE0g7/0ef73afbec.png

At high stars, there is few ranked map that I (and i'm sure that a lot of others players too) need to play unranked map to have some fresh/original/unpopular/funny content. For these unranked map, most of them doesn't fit the ScoreV2 because they weren't created for it. Moreover, I think you know what i am talking about, since for at least 2 year there has been some unranked beatmap for the TWC.

Cordially,
Electrano.

Endaris wrote: 5o5c3i

Well whatever.
No was given for the standard v2 discussion thread so I'm pretty sure in spite of the "discussion thread" smoogi won't read most posts and not reply at all once again.
Kind of futile to post then I suppose.

This is exactly going to happen. I am certain that players' comments about that will be ignored no matter what.

‎

Two things.

1.

smoogipooo wrote: 4a5y4s

Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania.

I strongly disagree with this. It would break autoconverts that are already considered broken. I don't think streaming 300+ bpm with both fingers would be an option to anyone. Especially when HP values are calculated the same as osu!mania. I'm reffering to autoconverts such as marisa etc. What would happen about those?

2.

smoogipooo wrote: 4a5y4s

Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.

Not sure how I feel about this. Because taiko's HP is completely different than the other modes and it kind of makes sense. I don't really see a need to change it, but it's a change I can live with.

Sorry to be so blunt but v2 is a load of crap.

The current system is working really well and allows newcomers to easily get into it while still rewarding skilled players by allowing them to achieve higher scores. Why change it into something that doesn't really reward the best players much but harshly punishes those that are not as good (yet)?

The miss on finishers is a horrible idea, it breaks so many maps and favors certain play styles over others. The current system rewards hitting them with double scores and if you want to top the leaderboards you kind of need to play them already. But it doesn't kill the accuracy of players who decide to play a little safe and take the hit in score instead.

If you want to change finishers then give them a marginally higher pp if played with both notes, so that hitting all on finisher heavy maps would award around 5% more pp.


The drumroll changes are kind of meh. They are intended as bonus points to achieve the highest possible scores and already allow different high scores even on SS plays. The only thing this change would achieve is again to make it only harder to get into taiko.


I can accept the changes to spinners if I really had to but this would kill some gimmick maps and make short (ninja) spinners pretty annoying.


The HP system is horrid for Taiko. This isn't Mania or CtB (thank god). Do you want to kill everyone that misses one stream on harder maps? Even though they would still easily with the current HP system?
Many maps balanced their HP settings to exactly what their creators intended, allowing a certain amount of misses over the whole map on each difficulty. Why break this system and force something in that's a lot worse?


What is the reasoning behind limiting the score you can achieve on a map?
Is score v2 going to apply to converts as well? Because if yes then it's even worse than it already looks.


With these suggested changes it's like you want Taiko to slowly die and fade away. It arguably favors only the very best players (which by definition are limited to a small number) while making it a chore to get into this gamemode, effectively driving away new players and therefore slowly killing the gamemode.

Bottom line: Don't change a running system, Taiko is fine as is and we all love it for what it is. Don't force changes for the sake of change and don't even dare thinking about forcing change just to bring Taiko in line with other gamemodes. If I wanted Mania I'd play Mania.

couldn't have said it better myself

OK, don't listen to the community that runs your game. It's not like we want this game to thrive too or anything.

Why the fuck was this even considered, the community has been begging for other things to be fixed/changed for years. Instead you break the only thing that works properly in this mode. Why not listen to the community and do what them as a whole want rather than your own changes that make no sense, especially since none of you actually play this mode seriously. How are you supposed to understand? You are going to argue with the community as a whole for breaking our favorite mode? Why?

The community for years has been begging for Converts to not be playable in taiko because of the amount of broken pp that can be gained and the technological advantage people can get from "TL"ing < which only like 20 people in this community can do properly. We have begged for a better pp system that wouldn't break on converts. We've asked for so many things in regards to how to gameplay works and have never criticized the score system.

One thing I don't understand is the lack of attention the community gets. We may not directly, but we keep this game running and by angering and pushing people away you are taking away the most crucial part of this game.

You can complain about the skinning finishers out but that's at the fault if the client for allowing it, not ours for doing it. Also you have taken absolutely no consideration for ddkk/kkdd players. Who physically can not do some of these things that are now required. What about the Taikomania skins?? Those will be unusable too. Let's kill off half of the community because why the fuck not. Seriously, are you retarded? I won't forget to mention how last second this would be unless you are delaying TWC, and even if you are. That's still retarded considering how fucking broken it is now.

We as the Taiko community are begging you, cancel this and work on something we've been asking for, for years. Such as, the pp system, removing converts from existence, etc. Listen to your fucking community, or kill the mode with a giant fucking sword. Up to you. "Community Managers"

This may have broken a few community rules, and by that, i frankly don't care. You're breaking the game and THAT'S WORTH breaking the rules. Not like any staff is going to even consider this post anyways. BECAUSE "FUCK THE COMMUNITY!"

EDIT: How the hell is this only a score change even? Counting spinners/sliders/finishers as missed unless played properly and the new HP is changing the games mechanics. Please stop!

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

also who cares about unranked maps?

Also, please don't everyone's favorite loved map

>>> Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania <<<

NO!

Then change the name of the game to osu!Drums instead of Taiko

What about big drumrolls, do they need to be played with one or two presses per tick?

EDIT: Also, dd kk hits or do dk kd hits work as well, if they needed to be double-hit?

big drumrolls can be hit like normal drum rolls, but yield more score.

Jaye wrote: 6y286r

n1doking wrote: 375h21

what was wrong with the old scoring system

why do we need a new one to replace a system that was perfectly fine

i don't understand the reasoning behind score v2 at all

Probably just to fit in with the other world cups, it's true that we don't need this.

for world cups ok, but in general?

---------------------------------------------------------
a new scoring system for big notes
miss if you don't hit 30% of a slider in taiko
hp for the sliders in taiko
combo for spinners
miss if you don't finish a spinner
hp for spinners

this kinda sounds like the opposite of what taiko is

in other taiko games (Taiko no tatsujin, taiko jiro and more) is it the same way (ok, the score system is different, but shakers and drum rolls should either not give combo or break the combo)
in this point i probably will lose the half of my fc'd ranks cause i not finished the shakers (wasn't fast enough cause my hands needs rest form the kiai before)

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

people skin away finisher objects to normal objects

never heared about something like this in the time i'm here

1000000 max score sounds like a bad idea at all

Catgirl wrote: a4y1r

Invective wrote: 2f2z4m

(quote="Loctav")also who cares about unranked maps?(/quote)
You use looming shadow as an argument for finishers but it's not like that's ranked lol.

better be only ranked taiko maps in TWC this year, there are plenty of them so it shouldn't be a problem right? since unranked maps are unimportant

only ranked maps in TWC? i don't know much about TWC cause i don't care about, but i see in LMS:SE2 allready that a lot unranked maps are used.
also there are so many good maps that should be ranked (or loved), but for some reasons they aren't ranked

agu wrote: 5j6dx

please don't make drumrolls and spinners more than what they are: "useless" bonus points.

if you want to shoot at me cause i told you what i think, feel free, i don't care much about

I don't understand why we need a new score system (outside of tournaments I guess), but here goes my 4.20 cents :

Normal notes
[*] Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.Nothing changed here.

Finisher notes
[*] Finishers are calculated last and are worth 4x the score. E.g. 300 normal -> 1200 finisher. 350 drum roll -> 1400 finisher.That's ok for me, score is not the important part of the PP calculation, and that's a HUGE cheese on tournaments, bit punitive, but I guess that's the point.
[*] Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this.EDIT : Some gameplays will not allow that, also, with new mapping rules (allowing finishers at end of streams) it will get extremely tedious to combobreak to every big note you can't hit (GL hitting every finishers on a xxxxx X xxxxx X xxxxx / X xxx X xxx X xxx X at high BPM. It adds challenge for sure, but it's just a pain to read, and to play)
Same for some players that doesn't seem to record the big notes correctly, even when they hit both their keys

Drum rolls
[*] Drum roll ticks are worth 350 points.Nothing changed here.
[*] Drum roll ticks are forced to 1/4 spacing.Nope, That's a huge fuck-up, the accuracy needed on 1/4 on some higher bpm maps with mods is going to break. Every time you locktick your slider, you're done. Ofc, with 25+ ticks sliders, that'll be fine because you can catch-up, but with short ones, you'll not have time to react, and that's not going to work
[*] Drum roll ticks are counted towards the "combo" portion of the score, as such they affect how close you get to 1000000 score.Again, that's bad, we're going a lot of steps backward
[*] Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 30% of the ticks (unsuccessful), otherwise a 300 hit will be given.See above points
[*] Drum rolls award HP for each tick and for successful completion of the drum roll.Why not.

Spinners
[*] A miss will be given upon unsuccessful completion of a spinner.Fine, but again, due to the lockticks, some quick spinners can lock up as well, that's 100% avoidable though
[*] A 300 hit will be given upon successful completion of a spinner.Why not.
[*] Spinners award around half the HP of drum rolls for each hit and for successful completion of the spinner.Why not.

Health
[*] Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.Yeah, no. Again, this has to do with the mapping community, and how things were done until now, GL clearing Galaxy Collapse with such an idea. You guys better fix the actual HP issue (Scaling too high with large amount of notes/Too low with low amount)


While I kinda agree with big notes changes(only score, again, no miss if you don't double hit, so that's fine), everything else is... just bad.

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)

You are mapping, and you DARE say that ?

OFC it's optionnal, because we're using drumrolls and spinners 75% of the time to map UNMAPPABLE part of the song (Or would be too hard, a huge drumroll instead of a HUGE 24+ notes stream on a muzu for example)
I understand that it would be nice to not have to ignore these mechanics (and get away with it), but that's what makes them BONUS, you don't hit them ? you don't get the score, you hit them ? you get the bonus point. End of story.
If you want to make them mandatory, you better adapt to every BPM, every star rating, every OD set, every SV set; yeah, good luck on that.

Also forgot, Good luck streaming 1/4 180+ Finishers drumrolls..., i'm not even talking about low star rating maps, kantan and fuutsu are going to be the worst pain to map and plan.
R.I.P beginners (yeah, goodluck spamming 1/4 everywhere because we couldn't map anything but drumrolls/spinners on the music, also, if you just spam or hit 1/2 ? Not working again)

Maybe that would give mapping diversity, but i'm not even sure about that.

I'm not talking about unranked maps, everything has been said already

So yeah, unless that's World Cup / Competition only, that's a huge no-no.

(As always, sorry for my painful-to-read English)

Jason X wrote: 62k4u

agu wrote: 5j6dx

please don't make drumrolls and spinners more than what they are: "useless" bonus points.

if you want to shoot at me cause i told you what i think, feel free, i don't care much about

??? I'm against these changes. As far as I can see, you seem to be too.

I actually think that the ScoreV2 system isn't that bad.
It implements some good features like giving more reward for Finishers.
But hitting them should still remain optional or at least give you the same amount of points as an inaccurate hit if you single tap it.

Endaris wrote: 5o5c3i

Just from a watching perspective I really think the HP-system of Taiko should stay as it is.
Having teams or players fail due to single spikes during a map or at the end is not desirable, be it from a watching or from a playing perspective.
Since Taiko is the only tapping-oriented gamemode where you can press wrong buttons in a way that throws you out of the mapflow the current way of dealing with HP makes absolute sense as you won't be instantly killed from the sort of common stream of misses and instead evaluated over the course of the whole map.

I can definitely agree with that.


Besides that the changes don't seem as bad as everyone says..

Uhm, finishers already give more points if you hit them correctly. You're saying hitting them should be optional, but these changes are doing the exact opposite, not making them optional.

I agree that the notelocking on spinners and slider ticks is a problem and I think the notelocking actually needs to go. (tbh I never got why they were a thing in the first place)

I agree that drum rolls and spinners are supposed to yield the "bonus score", but I also think that you need to at least perform on them a bit. hence why you need to hit 30% of the drum roll ticks, everything above stays optional.

For spinners, I think we can implement some sort of tiering that turns them into more than just "either complete or miss", something like "if you hit at least the half of the ticks, you get a 100, if you didnt even bother hitting the half of it, you miss".

Drum rolls and spinners therefore still contain their function of yielding the bonus score, however, you need to play them at least a bit to not miss entirely (therefore punishing it to ignore it at all).

Yes, HP scaling is off the roof and will be fixed.

Drum roll ticks forced to 1/4 is only an issue because of tick locking, right? If tick locking wouldnt be so retarded, this wouldnt even be an issue. Especially if you just have to hit 30% of the ticks.
And yes, Drum roll points should be a bonus score and dont count into the combo portion, I agree here.

I also have considered to suggest altering the way finishers work, Garpo came up with the idea of making them work a bit different, as in: whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still s for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.

agu wrote: 5j6dx

Uhm, finishers already give more points if you hit them correctly. You're saying hitting them should be optional, but these changes are doing the exact opposite, not making them optional.

I'm saying that they should remain optional or at least give you 100s (which is probably the better way to do it). Also Finishers currently only give you 2x points which isn't very rewarding, but 4x sound pretty fair to me.

This isn't even the final version.. Im just making some suggestions.

"Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this."

If they "require" this now, does that not mean they count as a miss if you don't hit them with both?

I wonder what brought upon the catalyst for change...?

Notelocking is the only thing that makes this osu!taiko stand out from regular TnT, when you really think about it. I don't think notelocking is a problem, it prevents button mashing from being a thing.

agu wrote: 5j6dx

"Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this."

If they "require" this now, does that not mean they count as a miss if you don't hit them with both?

i think so, rip the most plays on Da x10 and other maps with Finisher Kiais

also, how should beginners play this? i saw a lot of players that can't play finishers not even in Kantan diffs

@Loctav
I stand by my previous points.

How is 1/4 drumrolls with forced hit percentage okay in a Kantan and Futsuu? Where mappers are advised to only map 1/1 and 1/2 and have to resort to drumrolls and spinners to add a bit of variety? The difficulty on those maps will be in no comparison to what they should be.

And your last finisher suggestion is not much better, if they award a 100 point hit if played with one note they should also award 50% accuracy and not break combo otherwise it's inconsistent with regular notes.
Have one note finishers be 50% acc and 100 points but not break combo if you really have to nerf one hit finishers. Anything more than that is way overkill and not a good change imo


An important principle of gamedesign is "easy to learn, hard to master". Forcing these v2 changes onto Kantan and Futsuu maps will break many of them (as well as harder maps). The difficulty curve will be messed up and make it hard, even frustrating to get into taiko. The current system is forgiving for new players, giving them motivation to go on and improve their accuracy and score while also allowing good players to put in extra effort on bonus point elements to gain an edge on the leaderboard..
I don't understand why we should break this system and replace it with something worse

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still s for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.

combobreak vs miss on a finisher from not using both keys... correct me if i'm wrong but does this change anything apart from giving you an S rank instead of an A assuming FC on the rest of this map? because if not, then it's doing nothing meaningful to the score apart from the extra points you got from getting a 100 vs a miss, which is negligible.

if anything it should be more like missing a slider end in standard, but since taiko isn't combo-based like standard is you can't really draw that comparison. i still think a score drop is enough, even a more harsh score drop as you are implying, but i don't think you should break combo from missing a finisher.

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

I also have considered to suggest altering the way finishers work, Garpo came up with the idea of making them work a bit different, as in: whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still s for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.

That's better but breaking the combo is still unfair. There will be already a huge score difference. The bonus points should be high I agree, but combo break? Not really because jackhammering doesn't exist in Taiko and yet you are trying to create (or force people to do it) this thing (for index finger players like me as an example). If you are trying to make Taiko similiar to Mania, just delete this "combo" thing, and everything will be fine.

Opinions on stuff in blue

smoogipooo wrote: 4a5y4s

Normal notes

1. Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.
   Everything's good here

Finisher notes

1. Finishers are calculated last and are worth 4x the score. E.g. 300 normal -> 1200 finisher. 350 drum roll -> 1400 finisher.
   I'm guessing you meant 'drum roll' to be 'finisher' here. This is a positive change!
   
   
2. Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this.
   While conceptually I like this change I feel it'll hinder variety if map pool selectors decide to use any gimmick maps (PS: Please do, we've been bombarded by the same types of maps for so long without any SV / gimmick picks to choose from for reading oriented players). Perhaps instead of forcing a miss leave this at the new 4* multiplier? This already alleviates a lot of the problems with finishers having very little value.

Drum rolls

1. Drum roll ticks are worth 350 points.
   Ok
   
   
2. Drum roll ticks are forced to 1/4 spacing.
   I would consider this an issue but there was already discussion about fixing sliders to have 1/3 in 1/3 snap maps (this has needed to happen for FOREVER)
   
   
3. Drum roll ticks are counted towards the "combo" portion of the score, as such they affect how close you get to 1000000 score.
   Very good change, this allows players and commentators to get a much better idea of where extra score is coming from
   
   
4. Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 30% of the ticks (unsuccessful), otherwise a 300 hit will be given.
   So this is either a combo break or extra points (previously completion of a drum roll gave no points barring the ticks). Also has minor impact on gimmick maps explained later.
   
   
5. Drum rolls award HP for each tick and for successful completion of the drum roll.
   Good change considering health changes below

Spinners

1. A miss will be given upon unsuccessful completion of a spinner.
   I'm cool with this but this (mostly along with the health changes) makes certain gimmick maps impossible to (Cirno's Perfect Math Class for example from loved category) limiting diverse / gimmick maps that could be included in the pools. This is otherwise fine for maps that do not abuse scorev1 spinner health drain. Possible solution to this explained in health.
   
2. A 300 hit will be given upon successful completion of a spinner.
   No issues here.
   
   
3. Spinners award around half the HP of drum rolls for each hit and for successful completion of the spinner.
   Same as above.

Health

1. Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.
   This is the biggest and probably most interesting change made. Depending on what maps you look at this has pros and cons. Some of these cons have solutions.
   
   The biggest cons is how this impacts maps that use spinners in an abusive way. There are some maps that would use spinners as intentional health drain by throwing multiple short duration spinners at you (Hi Cirno!) that will have immediate fails in scorev2 upon getting to these sections (unless you can play these sections somehow, there are like 1-2 people who can). A possible solution to this is to drastically lower the amount of health lost from a failed spinner or to not have spinner misses impact health and only impact score. I had originally thought this would impact drumrolls as well, but after testing maps that use 'note sliders' (no length sliders basically) such as the ones in Cirno's Perfect Math Class, combo break is not being forced so no health is being lost. Due to this they are not impacted by the health changes, so this is only a problem with spinners.
   
   Positives of this include a healthier tournament system (failing is now possible) and a system that more accurately depicts if you are ing or failing a section, making it easier to understand for both players and viewers at an immediate glance instead of just "is my health bar above the line"
   

Overall? I like the changes quite a bit, especially for a tournament setting. Having the ability for a player to fail or even a team to all fail at once if one player out of three can't hit a difficult section brings a lot more competitiveness to a tournament setting. Score scaling also makes much more sense now and single misses aren't nearly as significant as accuracy and overall consistency compared to scorev1. I however still believe that there should be changes made before this is finalized to allow as diverse a mappool as possible.

5urface wrote: 5d1b2c

@Loctav
I stand by my previous points.

How is 1/4 drumrolls with forced hit percentage okay in a Kantan and Futsuu? Where mappers are advised to only map 1/1 and 1/2 and have to resort to drumrolls and spinners to add a bit of variety? The difficulty on those maps will be in no comparison to what they should be.

well, given that you only have to hit 30% of them, hitting only the 1/2 ticks of them works just fine. in original TnT (even though this isnt really a valid point), they are even free spam parts where you can hit as fast as you want. Drumrolls should be, in my idea, a part where you just hit as fast as possible whatever possible (consider you can hit dons and kats on drumrolls in any sort of combination). Maybe we can scale the amount of completion required with OD? That would scale the needed percentage down in Kantans and Futsuus, as they have a lower OD.

And your last finisher suggestion is not much better, if they award a 100 point hit if played with one note they should also award 50% accuracy and not break combo otherwise it's inconsistent with regular notes.
Have one note finishers be 50% acc and 100 points but not break combo if you really have to nerf one hit finishers. Anything more than that is way overkill and not a good change imo

given that combo score only occupies a small minority of scorev2 (30%? 20%? even less?), breaking combo penalizes the score you gain via combo, but the biggest portion will still remain accuracy, which a miss would impact way high than a 100. It's decreasing the penalty in every way, but I still believe that making the combo break is crucial to measure the combo portion of the score properly. Keep in mind that scorev2 does not use the classic score tiering upon combo like scorev2!


An important principle of gamedesign is "easy to learn, hard to master". Forcing these v2 changes onto Kantan and Futsuu maps will break many of them (as well as harder maps). The difficulty curve will be messed up and make it hard, even frustrating to get into taiko. The current system is forgiving for new players, giving them motivation to go on and improve their accuracy and score while also allowing good players to put in extra effort on bonus point elements to gain an edge on the leaderboard..
I don't understand why we should break this system and replace it with something worse

don't forget that this isnt been replacing scorev1. At least not in its current stage. Before this even happens (and the concerned appliance on kantans and futsuus), it will need to undergo plenty of revision first, like we do here. right now it is oriented for top level play and doesnt lower difficulties perfectly just yet. So that is still open for debate how this system can be applied without breaking all kantans and futsuus altogether.

Catgirl wrote: a4y1r

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still s for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.

combobreak vs miss on a finisher from not using both keys... correct me if i'm wrong but does this change anything apart from giving you an S rank instead of an A assuming FC on the rest of this map? because if not, then it's doing nothing meaningful to the score apart from the extra points you got from getting a 100 vs a miss, which is negligible.

if anything it should be more like missing a slider end in standard, but since taiko isn't combo-based like standard is you can't really draw that comparison. i still think a score drop is enough, even a more harsh score drop as you are implying, but i don't think you should break combo from missing a finisher.

yes, it gives you more accuracy score. read the quote reply above concerning how scorev2 separates score into an accuracy and combo portion.

frukoyurdakul wrote: 5k60z

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

I also have considered to suggest altering the way finishers work, Garpo came up with the idea of making them work a bit different, as in: whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still s for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.

That's better but breaking the combo is still unfair. There will be already a huge score difference. The bonus points should be high I agree, but combo break? Not really because jackhammering doesn't exist in Taiko and yet you are trying to create (or force people to do it) this thing (for index finger players like me as an example). If you are trying to make Taiko similiar to Mania, just delete this "combo" thing, and everything will be fine.

the score difference won't be that huge anymore as the accuracy portion won't be that much affected.

@tasha (too lazy to remove the boxes lol)

I don't see how making the finishers work like this (or even in the nerfed variation) slims the options in gimmick maps. if anything, it makes the map selection in world cups just different. And yes, I plan to make next one quite some tiers harder than before.

Also keep in mind that HP isnt drained properly right now. I didn't explain the way it was supposed to be sufficiently and therefore it is like triple too harsh than it should be. So do not judge upon that just yet, ok? A fix is already in the pipes and just needs to be thrown out.

Highest score should be 1,000,000 without sliders?
And now is the good opportunity to change slider's specification.
Make it like original taiko's one (can get score by player beats)

P.S. Let us beat big notes by a hand. Converted maps annoy me..

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still s for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.

"but you don't miss"
i guess that mean i can't it, cause it was counted as misses

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

the score difference won't be that huge anymore as the accuracy portion won't be that much affected.

Not really. The finishers will be more effective than they were before, as in like, if a normal note's score is 1100, if that note would be a finisher, one key hit will give 550 points while 2 keys hit will give 4400. The score difference is about 3.8k for ONLY ONE finisher instead of 1.1k hence the score difference will be higher than before. Adding a combo break will destroy the points that will come for the rest of the map.

Btw JasonX: that is only discussed, not present right now. You miss if you don't hit finishers with 2 keys.

Jason X wrote: 62k4u

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still s for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.

"but you don't miss"
i guess that mean i can't it, cause it was counted as misses

that's a proposal, that's not in the game yet...

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

@tasha (too lazy to remove the boxes lol)

I don't see how making the finishers work like this (or even in the nerfed variation) slims the options in gimmick maps. if anything, it makes the map selection in world cups just different. And yes, I plan to make next one quite some tiers harder than before.

Also keep in mind that HP isnt drained properly right now. I didn't explain the way it was supposed to be sufficiently and therefore it is like triple too harsh than it should be. So do not judge upon that just yet, ok? A fix is already in the pipes and just needs to be thrown out.

I'll leave opinion on health for now because of what was mentioned. As for why it slims options in gimmick maps, there are maps (again, I'll refer to Cirno here) where you have multiple finishers at 1/4 snapping. While it is playable (tried it myself!) depending on the speed of the map it could become extremely difficult to maintain combo compared to what people are used to. Would you not agree that a 4* multipler and a normal hit only being worth 1* is still a punishment to the player beyond breaking combo?

So, will this apply to converts as well?

I honestly don't think converts belong into this discussion. This is about tournament play, which doesn't have converts, and this also means, that it won't affect on regular play at all for some time! Additionally, converts aren't taiko maps - they are badly converted standard things.

HP drain is cruel though, good thing it's getting fixed : D


otherwise I love scorev2, finishers having importance is something I've always wanted. Might be too cruel for _some_ but they just have to learn to deal with it.

5urface wrote: 5d1b2c

So, will this apply to converts as well?

Converted maps are just GOOD EXAMPLES in this case

I disagreed that big notes can be combobreak

Considering some posts and how people react in #taiko (which have become calmer by now tho), we should all take a step back, breathe in and out a few times and then actually see what this actually all means to us.

First of all, this is not about whether stuff will be implemented or not. That's out of the current question. Right now it is just requesting help from the community to help testing and refine current planed changes for the TWC with constructive and reasonable responses. So despite some wanting to show their dissatisfaction about this, it means not to rage around and predict the apocalypse of Taiko because it is in ones opinion bad. We need reasons (which some provided by now while I was writing) how to improve the mentioned points in the OP so smoogie can work with people to implement changes to make sure the scoring system works well for everyone. So I please you to follow this and stop bashing at each other. We can do better than this. Much better. Besides, so far only possible bad impacts have been mentioned but no one mentioned the good aspect of such change which I want to elaborate a bit (not exhaustive, since we don't wanna write a (big) wall of text, right?).

1. Finisher: Big topic first, as our people seem to be for some reason terrified about the Finisher purpose with certain reasons(you don't have to repeat them at this point, we hear you!). Yes, in current test phase they are enforced. But whether they stay like that or not, such change gives us the possibility to have a ""new"" gameplay element in Taiko which finally makes it possible to compete against each other in a different aspect that is something else but DT for example. It is something our mode needs anyway, considering our stagnating situation and the fact that we managed it to be the least played mode, which has also a bit to do with the inaccessible possibility to compete in different ways.
   
   
2. Sliders and Spinners: First, you really have to apologize this, but I'm amused how people talk about their purpose of implementation while 95% didn't even remotely witnessed the time it happened. Their insignificance crystallizes from the mode being previously a mod much like HD or HR which was just a 1 to 1 copy of TNT. There was no concept for these elements at all since even the Spinner just got adapted from the standard mode itself. We are with Taiko still in the year 2008 and really need an update which you may understand after this:
   
   As some already said, they were until now by far too insignificant in mapping and hence, not representive in gameplay either. The reason for this however are the bugs these game-elements since over 8 years have: Missing / offbeat sliderticks and big spinners which overlap notes, that generated over the years very stiff and restrictive rules for these elements. This is why we never see for example 1/4+sliders or very short spinners in a consecutive way. This is the first approach to fix such issues by finally shifting the significance to these two elements.
   
   
3. Converts: While not sure why this is even a topic, I just want to mention that these will be (probably(let's be safe here)) sooner or later removed anyway as they were never a part of the game itself and just a compensation years ago when there were no specific Taiko maps at all. The random concept for converts has little to do with how Taiko works and hence has no impact into this topic at all.

Now after mentioning this, there are however some problems some of you guys already mentioned and which must be fixed before it can be actually considered / implemented. This is something dedicated to @smoogipooo for the actual purpose of this thread as I did my first observation today.

1. HP: The biggest issue we have right now is the HP penality by missing a note which must be scaled down(especially because of already existing maps). So does a HP 6 map give you a fail after missing only 8 notes, which, when considering the possible finisher changes, is more than unforgiven. Also, connected with this is the notelock problem as people mentioned already. By hitting once the wrong note in a stream, it becomes nearly impossible to get into the stream again which makes one instantly fail after 8 notes. I did my test obviously, and aproximately HP 1 would be only feasable atm, but since the HP issues is known already anyway(as Loctav mentioned more than enough of times) it is enough to just give that impression and wait for further changes. Here a little list about this matter:
   
   HP 1: Fail -> 21 notes; -> 20 notes
   HP 3: Fail -> 12 notes; -> 11 notes
   HP 6: Fail -> 08 notes; -> 07 notes
   
   
2. Finisher: While being fine with them, they are unforgiving when appearing in a consecutive way like for example in Hige Driver . SELEN - DA^10 with the current HP system. Once the HP system is fixed, that should be no problem anymore.
   
   
3. Slider: The concept looks good, but since the significance of sliders rise, the significance of their bug fixes rises as well:
   → TWC related: When you place a drum roll in a 1/4 distance to the previous note the ticks become offbeat. Should be fixed.
   → General related: It should be avoided that maps only have one predefined tickrate the whole way through. Rather, it should be possible to have different tickrates in a map since different timing signatures may appear or certain 1/4 may simply just be too much / not fitting to the song. In this way it could be also considered to hit finisher sliders with both fingers when being able to change the tickrate manually.
   
   
4. Spinner: As they become more significant as well, it should be considered to change the look of spinners to avoid them overlapping the whole playfild. In this way they can be used in a broader way.

Much like Tasha, who gave some good hints already, I am overall found of these changes and their ideas behind it, as it finally gives more aspects into a game which is already restricted due to bugs and problems which got never fixed / changed. It also makes us come finally one step closer to possible future changes and fixes. I will follow this up and give more opinions when I have something else to say.

Let's face it, I don't like the changes. There are many points as to why I don't like propositions - they're mostly judged through theory, I haven't had the chance to look at current scoring mode.

First of all, please do not compare two game modes. osu!mania has many things Taiko can't do: chordstreams, quadstreams, ln noodle spam, variable scrolling speed, casually hit 20 notes per second, and I sure do know I'm missing a lot more.

A little correction though, about normal notes:

Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.

I think you meant 150. Inaccurate hits were never a third of the max score, they were half. If you have changed the behavior of score to become 100 rather than 150, this is a change.

———

For finishers, the 100 penalty makes no sense whatsoever in two positions:

1. This makes accuracy count slightly wrong, ever so in more finisher heavy maps. You should judge accuracy though correct hitting of the notes in time, rather than how they were hit.
2. Not applying the x4 bonus upon single-hitting the note and giving a 300 is a penalty large enough (you only get a quarter of the points after all) to give players an incentive to hit them all.

Simply put, you're better off giving a single 300 than a single/double 100. This should be the only way to do so. Tournaments are score oriented, so penalizing by losing 75% of the points is a good way to tell "No! You should hit them with both keys" rather than make the player wonder why they're getting a 100 despite being at most 10ms off. Also, did you for bad hardware that will not correctly big notes?

———

Rolls: I am strongly against forcing 1/4 snapping by all means. Force it on maps that don't use 3 slider tick rate, which is the only way to have 1/3 ticks. Other than that, I am ambivalent about the idea. It should depend on the song's speed, because hitting extreme speeds at 1/4 will never be done. Also, issues Ono mentioned: tick glitches.

Another solution would be to bring back spam sliders, score yield set to about 1 and added independently from the max score, so the max score is still 1,000,000 plus ticks hit. I don't how osu!standard spinners work in ScoreV2, though. It may be like this.

———

Spinners:
I am against giving a miss upon unsuccessful spinner completion, rather giving it only by hitting less than half the hits (except for short spinners requiring fewer than 4 hits), giving a 100 between miss threshold and completion (+ short spinners), and 300 upon completion.

———

Also, do not try to copy a gamemode's HP system. The values will be imbalanced if you do it. As Ono mentioned (and I trust him), this is not a good idea because you can miss a very tiny amount of notes and fail. While in osu!mania you can recover it quickly, in taiko you can't have the luxury of 25 notes per second to let you recover from a small choke. At least, adjust the values so it's more balanced!

———

At first I was quite revolted with the idea of changing everything but by discussing with some pals I realized there can be something done. My suggestions may not be the best, but I think that, as someone who's fiddled with the settings and found how everything can work together, you should at least see if any of these are good starting points.

ok fine, i'll reply again about what the big problem will be with the new HP system

currently all maps in taiko were designed for the current HP system. if i'm an experienced mapper, i know when to use HP5, HP6, etc. i know for long marathons i that i should drop to HP4 or below so players can . the new ranking criteria for kantan difficulties are pushing for more use of HP9 because they're too easy to otherwise. everything is done for a reason.

now think about this, you introduce a completely new form of HP. HP is now drain rate instead of recovery rate. what does that mean? it means all of the current HP values need to be flipped around. HP9 on a kantan suddenly isn't a good idea because new players will fail instantly with a single mistake. your HP4 marathon maps are now much easier to than they were before, and they're easier to than random HP6 maps. the current values for HP just won't make sense.

there's not much of a point adjusting the new system to work well on every current map and every HP value. (though if you do i'll be very impressed because that's gonna take a lot of tweaking, i've done a lot of development and testing stuff so i know how this works.) but in my opinion, making a new system and then having to fit the thousands of taiko maps already out there just doesn't seem like the right approach. and obviously you're not going to change the HP values for every single map that has already been made.

maybe the new HP system was a good idea on paper, but it just doesn't fit right at all to me.

smoogipooo wrote: 4a5y4s

Please, do not discuss Star Rating and PP here.

So when are we going to discuss Star Rating and PP?

hey so im pretty bad at taiko, but here are my opinions anyways:

- Finishers: I think this is a good change. I always saw hitting finishers with one note to be analogous to "slider cheesing" in standard. I hate to bring up the "intended playing experience", but I think that is relevant here. About this breaking some unranked/loved maps, ya that fuckin sucks. I hate this answer, but the only thing I can think of is having a mod that makes the map "finisher-less" for maybe like 0.9x score

- Drum rolls/spinners: Seems good on paper, but I'm not good enough to provide my own real opinions. What others have said about slider tick-locking seems valid, and that should be fixed.

- Health: So there's a pretty interesting circumstance here... As someone who comes from playing osu!standard and osu!mania, I'm uneasy with the concept of playing through an entire map out of my skill level, and only being punished at the end. That seems like the purpose of NF (with the punishment being, of course, the reduced score). While I don't know much about the scaling of this, I much prefer this new health system. I don't think there will be a huge difference except for beginners (such as myself), and I'll say that being able to know where you need more practice can be beneficial and motivating. About the notelocking thing, uhh, remove that, notelocking is stupid lol.

- 1 Million score limit: Only bringing this up because it's the perfect place to bring up the following. The reason scorev2 is being brought upon us is as an attempt to unify the currently very different gamemodes. I think this is a good idea, as they are, after all, all part of one game. Especially with the modularity of gamemodes that will be introduced, I believe it will be important to make some common mechanics (score, health, etc) somewhat similar across them. This is, however very challenging, because the vastly gameplay of each mode naturally brings up very different scoring systems, as the values of each mode are different (score is meant to be a representation of skill, after all). I don't have a solution, but I wanted to bring this up just so that people have that in mind while suggesting stuff. Though most of the suggestions have been about mechanics unique to taiko so maybe typing all this was a waste of time lol.

About the score limit itself, I don't really think it matters. It's just a different scaling.

Hopefully my thoughts from a taiko noob makes you think idk.

PS: what even is the point of the scorev2 mod ahah. i mean i guess its to try to get more testing on scorev2, but no one is ever going to use it because scores dont submit. if you actually want people to test your thing, make it calculate the scorev1 during the play, and submit that.

PSS (edit): Someone brought up the different playstyles a while ago (too lazy to quote). I think that the vastly different playstyles used by all sorts of taiko players is one of the best things about the gamemode. I think that the reason for this diversity comes from the freedom of how to hit the notes, like singletapping vs alternating on steroids. However there is a limit. People who play osu!std with mouse-only are at a disadvantage, just like 1 finger players should IMO. i probably triggered so many people xd

I might as well leave my few quick thoughts on score v2. Since this seems to be focused on ranked taiko maps, I'll leave any comments on converts and unranked maps (namely gimmicky ones) in spoilers. (note: edited a couple things for more clarity)

For finishers, I think the best way to implement this is keeping it like v1, where hitting the note with one key is worth much less points, but has the same accuracy and doesn't affect combo. With the new 1 million top score, it would be easier to understand how the finishers affect the total score, and it rewards players who hit finishers much more than it does in score v1. As long as they aren't combo-breakers, I'm fine with them. The timing on finishers would probably have to be cleaned up, too. Gimmick maps seem to be gaining popularity, so I don't think they should be ignored entirely. I think maps like Planet/Shaper will end up being broken with v2 no matter what happens, but it would be nice to be able to play some of the tamer ones with tons of finishers (cirno's math class). As for converts... well, they had it coming to them. It would certainly make the leaderboards for them interesting, so long as anyone still plays them.

I like the changes to sliders, here. Like the finishers, the timing would probably have to be cleaned up since if the note is too close to the slider, it makes it easy for the slider to not any hits. The new slider scoring stops people from getting #1 on easy converts with HT Also I know there's some unranked maps with dumb sliders (including TnT songs) that would make a combo-break with a slider very annoying. They already affect the total score out of 1 million, so perhaps they don't need to combo-break? It's only a small problem.

No problems with the spinners. Having them miss might affect a few gimmick maps with spinner spam. I never liked spinner spam in gimmick maps to begin with, though... Not a big problem, regardless.

I like the new HP system, too. It's annoying to get to the end of a hard map wondering if you have enough hp, only to find out you failed. I played through some HP10 maps in v2, and I was fine with how the drain worked. It seems you guys will be tweaking this, anyways. It makes failing to 1/8 in converts a thing, but I usually end up not ing heavy 1/8 spam maps anyways.

The scoring is fine, from what I've seen. I've always liked accuracy based scoring more than combo, and this is much more forgiving with combo-breaks, which is helpful, considering that there's more ways to break combo now.


In short, I don't like the new sources of combo-breaks, and the finishers are somewhat wonky, but pretty much everything else is fine.

After ranting about it before now I went and actually played a couple of maps in Score V2 and surprise surprise - the current system is surprisingly .... bad.

Before seriously implementing v2 the bugs need to be fixed, especially drumroll and spinner hit registration.
With those fixes in place making these elements hit objects that can break combo is fine.

HP drain as of right now is utterly brutal, this still needs serious rebalance. If this is properly balanced to not instakill you when you miss one note in a stream you can't get back into because Taiko is being Taiko the new system might be decent.

Finishers that break combo need to go. Just award points and accuracy like a regular note if hit with one button and award 4x score if hit with both - This is enough incentive to play them and punishment if not played to full potential especially considering the new maximum score.
Also this would not entirely break converts (in case Score V2 will ever make it to the main client as scoring system). Hate them as you may, they are a part of Osu! Taiko and are ranked so you have to bear with it. Many play converts because they are a different challenge to regular Taiko maps, are actually fun to play and many songs aren't mapped in Taiko. Some people actually play for the music and not pp -.-

The main issue I still have is that the entire map pool is based on and balanced around the current system. With literally tens of thousands of maps to consider rebalancing this will be impossible, some maps will come out ahead, some behind and some will be entirely broken to crash and burn in most spectecular fashion. While most ranked maps might be at least somewhat okay this will be most evident in the vast selection of unranked maps that are such a crucial part of the taiko community.
Who are you to deny the efforts and time those map creators have sacrificed to offer the community this amazing mappool only to have their work be rendered useless by a new scoring system?

Jason X wrote: 62k4u

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still s for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.

"but you don't miss"
i guess that mean i can't it, cause it was counted as misses

and me ...

If we are going to mention notelocking as an issue in this thread, I want to know if anything will be done about map-specific SV (not HR) on 16:9 vs. 4:3 screen resolutions?

I have already got used to 16:9 a bit more over the past months, but as a 4:3 resolution main I've attempted some comparisons and I came to the conclusion that it seems like the viewfield-width on 16:9 is not being scaled properly to map-SV like HR is (or even HD with its black rectangle on the right) and causes maps with fast SV to become much easier to read compared to 4:3, resulting 4:3 to be more of a handicap than anything.

With this being focused on for TWC 2017, I want to add to that focus by alluding this SV-scaling issue. My fear is that devs/map pickers are not aware of this and will pick maps that are close to impossible to read with 4:3, albeit this point may be subjective and egocentric. However, in TWC 2016 Finals DT map pool, this map was picked and I was certain to bail out from playing this because this was extremely harsh to read on 4:3. The map is fast on 16:9 too, yes, but I noticed I was able to combo it much better, eventually getting a sloppy Full Combo during a session with 16:9.

Concluding, I do want to point out it was not my aim to appear salty by mentioning this, given that with 16:9 most of the PP rewarding standard converts like this map appear easier to play and me still playing 4:3, but it is still an issue which at least has earned the right to be mentioned. I haven't checked 16:9 vs. 4:3 scaling on the other modes, but if they do scale, then it is definitely an issue. I will also say that I'm not hoping for a fix anytime soon, as I can see such a fix having no purpose if 4:3 is perhaps being removed entirely with osu!next, but I am hoping to at least have awoken some attention towards 4:3 players, so maps like YuYu Metal can be avoided for the TWC.

------

As with scorev2:

You have issued more mechanics that will change with scorev2 than actual "score" elements. So what are the changes to scoring going to be? The only thing I see is implied by OP, where there is going to be a 1,000,000 score cap like in mania and standard (afaik), and it is also stated that normal notes will continue to give a constant value towards that score. But how are you going to make sure the 1,000,000 score cap is reached? The points given must scale somehow to presume that cap, right? How will that be done? Is it just going to be along the lines of "single_note_score = 1,000,000 / (Total Notes - (Other score%s))"? How much is the score affected by Combo like it is at the moment with its original Taiko no Tatsujin scoring increments until 100 Combo? Will there be penalties for missing like in standard? Forgive me if that has been said before, but I do want some clarification here.

Otherwise:

- osu!mania HP drain is harsh but not as harsh as osu!standard, so objectively I'm fine with the HP drain thing coming to osu!taiko, as long as notelocking will be fixed. However, I do agree with some people mentioning already existing maps being in a disadvantageous spot if this were to be implemented. I'd vouch for a HP drain rate value that scales to e.g. OD instead of having HP as a separate value set by the mapper next to OD.

- Spinners and drum rolls make sense in of them now having more purpose towards combo and score than they have at the moment. The forced 1/4 spacing seems like an attempt to prevent things like 1/8 drum rolls at e.g. 300 bpm or something similar, but I am not sure what this will mean for the mapping aspect and for all of the already existing maps, so I will stay neutral here.

- For the purpose of TWC 2017, having Finishers being forced to be played as a double tap note and otherwise resulting in a miss seems reasonable. But if this were to be implemented live, I can see a new PP algorithm or a complete reiteration of all players' current PP values for osu!taiko being required. I am most concerned about standard converts here.

For a TWC setting, I wouldn't mind these changes at all. However, if this were to go live, I'd like to see PP being adjusted first. Furthermore, as you can see, unranked/loved maps will be a great issue to so many players (including me, I it), but I can't think of any good way to solve this. It is easy to disable scoring entirely for unranked maps, but I'm not sure what will happen to Loved maps and the Loved state itself. I also don't know how much the new mechanics will influence mapping, but I'm sure they will.

Something else I just noticed - Did you guys forget about Kiai Time?

It seems like Kiai Time doesn't effect hit scores whatsoever. Shouldn't it still add 20% score bonus?

i bet u guys worked real hard on this and were really proud of it and excited to share it

So kiai time will make me blind even on scorev2 *sigh*

On one hand I love how big notes will force players to play the maps as they were intended to, but spinners and drum rolls feel like they shouldn't be so strict, especially that they have little to do with "rhythm" I know, contradicting myself right from the start. Spinners are a bit easier to argue against, as they are great in concept but awful at execution (why would you need to mash more if the OD is higher, when the song is the same?). Drum rolls are basically lenient streams in most of the cases; I feel like their main purpose is filling out streams in easier difficulties. I don't really have enough experience as a mapper to comment on drum roll gimmick maps, so I won't comment on it. I feel that they need a rework (maybe don/kat sliders where you have to hold and release, much like in mania but colour based? Loctav mentioned that they aren't afraid turning taiko away from TnT, so experimenting with changing these elements shouldn't be unthinkable.)

I thought the score would be weighting combo as much as in std, but gladly, this does not seem to be the case. However, score rankings will absolutely lose their meaning in all of the modes with scorev2 with the 1m cap. Why would I try to fc long hard stuff if I could just spam 30 second maps for the same score? As for people arguing that big notes shouldn't break the combo, as 4x score is significant enough of an award - outside of tournaments people won't give a damn about big notes.

I think the worst element of the scorev2 is the HP update. Taiko has the best HP system of all the modes. Obviously notelocking is a huge reason, but I think tons of people prefer taiko's HP system over mania's. It'll force some players to use NF when they just want to play some maps. Also it is very traumatising if you lose a tournament match because you failed at the end, while the enemy team had people failing left and right during the map, but managed to climb back at the end. Looking at the whole performance instead of certain segments makes more sense for HP Unless on maps that have unreasonable difficulty spikes.

Overall I have mixed feelings about this.

So if we are focusing on just ranked maps than here are my following thoughts

Spinners: OK

Sliders: OK

Finishers: I don't like this change but I think others have said everything that needs to be said

HP: The big problem I see with the HP system is notelocking. While yes Loctav mentioned removing notelocking as he didn't see the point of it, there is a very good reason notelocking exists. At low difficulties a player could conceivably hit every single note with all 4 buttons as everything is just 1/1 or 1/2 locked. But due to notelocking you will miss and break combo preventing players from just ignoring needing to read red vs blue.

At higher difficulties sure hitting all 4 buttons is impossible (unless we get some mania players who can just hammerjack for minutes straight which they would become instant amazing at Taiko) but players could instead stream an entire 1/4 section of a map just keeping the rythmn with both hands at the same time. Basically they could if using DDKK just keep their index fingers timed together or the middle fingers timed together. For KDDK would be slightly harder as players would need to hit Index finger on one hand at the same time as middle finger on the other hand just so you had a red & blue note hit for every beat of the stream. Would this be tiring on long streams? You Bet! But players can play index finger only so I can guarantee there are people who could do this.

Tons of ranked maps now have HP<5 this is going to make maps incredibly easy to

https://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/b/1110965

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

also who cares about unranked maps?

Also something I would like to ask is what is going to happen to all the scores that have finishers only pressed with one key? Are the scores going to remain how they are or what? It will show in replays that they missed where on the overall score it'll say they FC'd.

So balancing HP is going to take a little bit of experimentation. Do let us know if it's too lenient. At the moment HP drain is around half of what it was before the recent hotfix.

As of being years of a Taiko player, I believe not only me, but most of us are giving comments on this thread from our hearts. Isn't it really that hard to understand what we have been thinking since this thread came out? We are not finding the point that we might compromise such as tuning the 'miss count' to a 'combobreak' only, or just balancing the new HP system. Isn't our thoughts as hard to understand as they are ... just become negligible?

Just a quick reply on the changes :

- For the combobreak just like a sliderbreak as Std mode, or even count as a miss if players hit a finisher with only a single tap, this is way too punishing for players that they are actually having a lower score gained as the consequence. I don't see we need further punishments on the players (even they really skin the finisher notes becoming normal hit notes) who hit them in single tap, or the people actually could play good but couldn't tap 2 taps together (just styles problem, or yeah, the index fingers player) will be unacceptably topped by the others just because they couldn't get a high enough score from what they actually did their best.

- For the changes on slider and spinner, nah, nothing should be done to these 'bonus things'. For years, sliders and spinners in a map are just about the mapping style, but not as regarded as one major part of the plays and the scores, and which it shouldn't. Not the Taiko no Tatsujin, and not the osu!Taiko. Counting them as a miss in any conditions, as well as the new HP system, is undoubtedly the worst idea I've ever seen.

- For the new HP system, just one sentence. Taiko is not Mania, and shouldn't be considered as how Mania is in any species of talking.

We play game for fun and challenges, not for BEING LESS PUNISHED

Comeon...

i just keep seeing players' of why they don't like this being dismissed or ignored, with the reasoning of "it won't be the main scoring system for a long time, so get over it". well, what's gonna happen in a year, 2 years, or whenever this is the main scoring system, and people still don't like it? they're gonna have no choice but to switch to it. they won't get to leave any on why it shouldn't be the main scoring system... oh wait, they already have and it's been denied just because "it won't be the main scoring system for a long time, so get over it".

nobody asked for this. the only people ing/defending it are just saying "i can live with this" or "get used to change", not "i love these new changes and i think they are good". they're accepting it because it's inevitable that this will be forced upon them and they're just dealing with it. but that still doesn't mean the changes were good. why not fix some of the many things that have been broken in this game for years that people actually have been asking for?

if it was just a simple scoring change then it would be easier to deal with, but these are changes to the core mechanics of the game. while i can see the reasoning for some of them, they just aren't necessary, and they change the game and make it farther from what i know and love taiko for. and i know i'm not the only one that feels this way.

please listen to your players.

Some personal opinions here. I'll start by saying I don't like the whole scoreV2 thing, both because of objective reasons and personal preferences.

HP: I dislike any sort of draining mechanism as the current HP system is what I prefer. I have some experience in playing all 4 gamemodes (although not so good at other 3) and honestly I hate the drain system which can fail a player before the song ends. Not only it's frustrating for players because of a single difficulty spike (hi galaxy collapse), it's also unfair in twc context when an obviously better-performing player gets 0 score just because he could not revive after failing at an intense part (as mentioned by _verto_). This is further aggravated by notelocking issues mentioned several times before. I'd prefer current HP system in which HP value is reasonably adjusted by mappers in a case by case basis, rather than a draining system that literally kills a player if he misses like 8 notes in HP6 (what Onosaki tested in his post), which is not uncommon even for twc level players.

smoogipooo wrote: 4a5y4s

At the moment HP drain is around half of what it was before the recent hotfix.

Even when halved I'll still say it's very high, considering it's not uncommon to have long 1/4 sections, often mixed with 1/6s. Pretty much an instant-kill if one misses such stream placed at the very end of a song.

1m score cap: I don't think this is a good idea for twc. If I didn't misunderstand, a lower combo difficulty means more score obtainable per note, and hence more score loss per note if a player gets an inaccurate hit or miss. If so, it creates an odd situation in which high combo count means score loss can be easily remedied by hitting more in sliders (drumrolls) or finishes, but a lot less feasible in low combo difficulties. The original scoring algorithm is fairer because it doesn't favor any side on both cases, so why bother replacing it?

Finish: I oppose the new proposal because of two reasons. One, changing the bonus multiplier from 2 to 4 is way too much. The penalty for not obtaining full finish score (either inaccurate hit or not hitting both sides) is way too harsh, considering 4 inaccurate normal notes equals to 1 inaccurate finish (Unmei explained this further). Two, it doesn't make sense to treat non-double-hit finish as a miss. This is utterly unfair to 2-finger players which I can personally confirm (frukoyurdakul and animexamera said the same thing).

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

I REALLY wonder how mania people do that witchcraft. also who cares about unranked maps?

Because they place a finger on each key, which is not always the case in taiko. If you're saying it's 2-finger players' fault, you're basically disregarding all the efforts they paid on this game. Also I don't get why unranked are to be ignored. Some of them did appear in mappool of twc6.

Drumrolls (Sliders): The forced 1/4 drumroll spacing makes no sense, since some songs have 1/3 or 1/6-based rhythm and the mappers already put slider tick rate 3 on them. Also it could be painful to play long drumrolls in high bpm (270? 300?). Besides, considering <30% hit as miss can be problematic because of notelocking. Players often miss all slider ticks if there is a note 1/4 before the drumroll unless they hit earlier/later purposefully (which doesn't fit the song rhythm, see what Onosaki wrote).

Spinners: My biggest concerns would be short spinners which have little time to hit. Forcing a miss for incomplete hits is likely to create significant score difference (in twc context), which I think is over-penalized.

And for the combo-breaking concept (for finishes, drumrolls and spinners), I don't think that's even needed, given players are already given less score if they fail to complete. In competitive environment like twc such score loss is already significant enough to provide them incentives to complete them, and further punishment seems to be overdone.

At least for me, the current scoring system is fine but this new proposal doesn't seem well-thought.

I am not sure if people here noticed or understood the construct of the 1 000 000 points so far, so keep in mind:

Score is composed of two parts. Accuracy score (80% or 800 000) and combo score (20% or 200 000). Accuracy score is determined by the correctness of your hits and ONLY by that. (Combo has no impact here, hitting all 300 gives you the 800 000). Vica Versa for the Combo portion, this is determined by your combo. (Max combo will give 200 000 points). Combo breaks only impact the 20%. 300/100/Miss only impact the 80%.
Right now, slider ticks are counted into combo score (however, this isn't right)
300/100 hits don't give exactly 300/100 or increased based on combo, they give score based on the amount of total notes and based on whether you hit right (300) or close to right (100). Same goes for combo score. A max combo will give you 200 000 points at the end (and hitting all ticks, which is silly so let's disregard that for the sake of explanation). Any combo breaks will draw from these 200 000, there is some mad magic that balances out maps with massive high combo, so people breaking in the middle of a 4000 combo map and having a max combo of only 1900 ever won't be extremely penalized vs someone who broke way later and got 3200 max combo. There would be a difference, but not as significant as today's scoring would give.

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

Any combo breaks will draw from these 200 000, there is some mad magic that balances out maps with massive high combo, so people breaking in the middle of a 4000 combo map and having a max combo of only 1900 ever won't be extremely penalized vs someone who broke way later and got 3200 max combo. There would be a difference, but not as significant as today's scoring would give.

i'm sorry, but do you even know how score v1 works at all in taiko?

yes, it is a tiering per-hit-gain upon combo increase, capping out eventually. scorev2 combo portion does sort of the same, however does only affect 20% of the actual score, therefore making the impact to the overall resulting score less than current scorev1.

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

yes, it is a tiering per-hit-gain upon combo increase, capping out eventually. scorev2 combo portion does sort of the same, however does only affect 20% of the actual score, therefore making the impact to the overall resulting score less than current scorev1.

Yes, but it caps out at 100 combo which means that currently you will get the same score if you break combo once no matter at what part of the song unless it's within the first and last 100 notes where you will lose less. What this achieves is predictability and consistency - even across different maps. On regular notes a combo break will net you about 40k score loss, no matter what map or where the combo break was. This system is inherently fair and predictable which can't be said about the new system which lacks the transparency of the current scoring system.

Loctav wrote: 5b1v22

capping out eventually

I hope you realise that 'eventually' is at 100 combo, so in your example (ignoring spinners/finishers/kiai) neither player would be 'extremely penalized' more so than the other. This is not standard, breaking combo mid-map vs early in the map has very little difference.

Let me post my personal opinion.
Will there be only ScoreV2 one day?

If so,please make slider,spinner and notelock make sense.
To defining highest score will not matter,but please do not let 1,000,000 include any sliders and any spinners.
Objectively speaking,current ScoreV2 does not make sense because of sliders and spinners. I think they should be "Additional Score" in taiko.
Then,let sliders enable score. In detail,to enable to get a score per players tap their keyboard (like original taiko)
I expect this will make sense more than current specification.

As you guys know,HP Drain system with notelocking is kind of annoying. I do not have anything to say especially.

About finishers,let me say "do not let finishers be Combobreak". That's it.
If there will be only ScoreV2,I swear this would become biggest problem of it.

Thanks :3

To be perfectly honest I feel like this entire new score V2 for Taiko is only a thing because "hey we made a score V2 for the other gamemodes, we should also make one for Taiko!" Taiko is honestly the only gamemode that didn't need a score V2 as the scoring system had a good balance between ACC & combo as combo only built up to 100 for points. With mania it was needed as combo had 0 importance and it was definitely needed in standard as ACC was irrelevant if you could hold a great combo.

Edgar_Figaro wrote: 6r474d

To be perfectly honest I feel like this entire new score V2 for Taiko is only a thing because "hey we made a score V2 for the other gamemodes, we should also make one for Taiko!" Taiko is honestly the only gamemode that didn't need a score V2 as the scoring system had a good balance between ACC & combo as combo only built up to 100 for points.

After long and careful consideration I think I came up with the perfect solution for the Taiko Score V2 issue:

How about you entirely scrap what you have right now, listen to what the community (you know, those guys who actually play and keep the game alive) wants and reevaluate the whole system?

I don't mind if you change how the score is calculated exactly or if you introduce a score limit, rebalance accuracy vs. combo value in score. But don't touch the actual gameplay of Taiko, that's just asking for disaster to happen.

What's the reason behind Score V2 for Taiko anyways? Noone asked for this or remotely wants it. Did people complain about score calculation in Taiko?
Wouldn't this development time be better invested in the bigger issues Taiko has, issues that the community has actually asked you to fix?
Change doesn't always equal improvement.

It's just like back in the old 2008 days

I usually don't involve myself in forums like this, but shit, I need to get this out.

Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.

This is the only thing I agree with.

Finishers are calculated last and are worth 4x the score. E.g. 300 normal -> 1200 finisher. 350 drum roll -> 1400 finisher.
Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this.

No. Why the hell, would a double press be REQUIRED, to hit the note. Do you have any idea, how difficult so many maps would become, just because of this? The way we have it now is totally okay. If you hit it like a normal note, it's treated like a normal note. Nobody has *ever* complained about this. If you want the bonus points, hit it like a double. Bam. World moves on.

Drum roll ticks are worth 350 points.
Drum roll ticks are forced to 1/4 spacing.
Drum roll ticks are counted towards the "combo" portion of the score, as such they affect how close you get to 1000000 score.
Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 30% of the ticks (unsuccessful), otherwise a 300 hit will be given.
Drum rolls award HP for each tick and for successful completion of the drum roll.

Drum roll ticks should not be counted towards combo, what the hell are you thinking?! They're just supposed to be bonus points, this shouldn't be touched, it's not significant, so many maps don't even *have* drum rolls ffs!!! They have NEVER counted for combo and it should stay that way, some sliders just ninja you and they're so short that like, you don't even get to hit them. Oh but that's right, who cares about unranked maps. It's not like every map starts unranked, right loctav? Who cares about unranked maps, like Doppelganger should have fucking been. HP is just stupid period for this.

A miss will be given upon unsuccessful completion of a spinner.
A 300 hit will be given upon successful completion of a spinner.
Spinners award around half the HP of drum rolls for each hit and for successful completion of the spinner.

A miss given for a not completed spinner? Are you kidding me?! WHO DOESN'T COMPLETE SPINNERS?! NOBODY WOULD EVEN NOTICE FFS!! Except when there's ninja spinners but oh right, unranked maps don't matter, only ranked maps amirite. And screw the loved category too why don't we. I can probably get used to the 300 hit eventually. Again HP is just kinda dumb for this.

Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.

No.

Listen, nobody asked for this, everybody in the forums are complaining except for loctav. You guys clearly have no fucking idea what you're doing, listen to *us* for a change.

not everybody is complaining, always that.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean Nwolf, almost every pro player I know is complaining!!!! This isn't even ScoreV2, this is TAIKOV2!! Not everyone is complaining, so if like, three or four people aren't complaining, then it's okay to change it for the whole fucking community? How about fuck no, why not take a poll and see the true statistics about this or something like that.

The only people who aren't complaining are staff , but sure let's just forget about the people who PLAY the game, right, because the people who have to deal with all the staff's shit don't matter, as long as the staff and devs have it their way, doesn't matter if so much of the community is upset, right?!

Personally I'm fine with spinners/sliders, since they seem to have some plans for adjusting sliders to play differently than they currently do.

However, finishers and hp drain feel like unnecessary changes.

The way taiko is mapped/played is balanced based on the current hp drain system. Yes, it wouldn't make any difference if you fc a map. But a lot of the time people play maps that are harder/have sections that would cause instant failure if the hp system was changed. Yes, a lot of these maps are unranked. But they still matter. There are obviously far more unranked maps than ranked maps, and I honestly probably play more unranked maps than ranked maps anyways. A lot of songs don't have ranked maps, and there really just aren't that many ranked maps I enjoy playing. It's true you can just play it with nofail since it's unranked anyways, but this would affect people playing unranked maps in multi for fun. Honestly, it's not THAT bad of a change, but it just feels kind of.. unnecesssary.

As for finishers, 4x score seems fine to me as a way to encourage actually hitting them with two fingers. However, I don't think what happens if you hit it with one key should be changed. Even if you just imagine actually playing a taiko, if you hit it with two sticks at the same time yes it will be louder, but one still makes a sound.

EDIT: Mentioning converts, I'm fine with them not being counted as ranked but please leave the convert system to play converted maps, because some songs just don't have a taiko map, whether ranked or unranked, and some converts are fun to play.

No comment on the score system changes because I don't think I know enough to say whether or not it's balanced.

As for its use in competition, which is the goal, I think only the finisher change is a problem because it limits which maps can be selected and also affects the playstyle of the competitors, severely hindering ddkk players.

Just curious at this point but how many of you have actually sat down and seriously tried these changes? If you're at all familiar with how ScoreV1 works in a tournament environment you'd know it has a fuck ton of issues (misses having WAY more impact than anything else, finishers giving practically nothing to the point that if a map had enough hard finishers that'd force combo break they'd legit just skin them out, HR having an advantage over HD on any map with spinners, winners being insanely predictable barring shitmisses towards end of a map). ScoreV2 fixes a LOT of the issues that'd come up otherwise and if you took the time to actually test it you'd know that.

The only complaint I'm agreeing with anyone on is combo being broken by single hit on finishers, as I do feel the x4 multipler is enough of a score bonus for a proper hit to make not hitting them much more impactful than before.

BrambleClaw wrote: 3f5331

almost every pro player I know is complaining!!!! This isn't even ScoreV2, this is TAIKOV2!! Not everyone is complaining, so if like, three or four people aren't complaining, then it's okay to change it for the whole fucking community? How about fuck no, why not take a poll and see the true statistics about this or something like that.

And welcome to the reason legit nothing ever will get done with this community. You're all so opposed to anything new or different that you flip your shit the moment you hear the word "change".

BrambleClaw wrote: 3f5331

The only people who aren't complaining are staff , but sure let's just forget about the people who PLAY the game, right, because the people who have to deal with all the staff's shit don't matter, as long as the staff and devs have it their way, doesn't matter if so much of the community is upset, right?!

I'm representing my individual opinion, not staffs. Again the community gets upset about practically anything. We can't even remove converts from rank because of people who oppose it and that's something the community is majority in favor of (as far as I'm aware).

A quick list of positive things this brings:
- You always know when someone achieved a perfect score for any given mod combination (1m, 1m + 60k for 1.06 mods, 1m + 120k for 1.12 mods)
- Accuracy has a higher weight
- Misses have a lower weight (combo isn't the only thing that matters with scorev2 unlike scorev1)
- Mod differentials in score are gone (due to equal score, which btw isn't achievable without the way they're considering spinners and sliders in scorev2)
- Opportunity for players to actually fail the map
- Values finishers more to make ignoring them / using a small note skin more punishing (Cause seriously small note skins are the cheesiest crap next to people who use custom resolutions to do HDHR)

Neutral / Negative things:
- Health: This is both a positive and a negative, positive was described above, negative(?) thing is because of how people use HP value in taiko, some maps become easier to
- Spinners: Gimmick maps get broken. Solution: Remove health loss from missed spinner. How many players seriously don't complete possible finishers anyways? (+ you lose score and would make spinners feel more like a 'bonus')
- Finishers: Finishers breaking combo on single hit is like the only seriously negative thing, this is easy to fix by allowing x4 on double hit but not dropping combo on single hit.

Okay yeah so maybe I was a bit heated at the time I was typing it, my bad. But I do still personally disagree with a lot of these changes as do a lot of other people. As 5urface said, I'm fine with a score V2, but why on earth are we changing gameplay too, that's not "score". And then what's going to happen to these thousands and millions of old scores? Are we seriously going to recalculate every last one of them? I doubt it, so what's gonna happen with those? It's not the fact that it's change necessarily, because the more I think about the score cap, the more I'm okay with it, that's not a big deal, but..it's so massive, it's almost like taiko itself is getting a complete rework. It's not going to be like the game mode I fell in love with :/ As far as what I said about staff and stuff, as far as I can tell anyway, staff in general are the ones who don't oppose this, but I've only known about this for like, a few hours, keep in mind. I dunno, I guess we'll see what happens, but in my personal opinion, this is a bit of a drastic change just for a score v2 that nobody really asked for. (If people really did ask for it though, feel free to correct me.)

BrambleClaw wrote: 3f5331

Okay yeah so maybe I was a bit heated at the time I was typing it, my bad. But I do still personally disagree with a lot of these changes as do a lot of other people. As 5urface said, I'm fine with a score V2, but why on earth are we changing gameplay too, that's not "score". And then what's going to happen to these thousands and millions of old scores? Are we seriously going to recalculate every last one of them? I doubt it, so what's gonna happen with those? It's not the fact that it's change necessarily, because the more I think about the score cap, the more I'm okay with it, that's not a big deal, but..it's so massive, it's almost like taiko itself is getting a complete rework. It's not going to be like the game mode I fell in love with :/ As far as what I said about staff and stuff, as far as I can tell anyway, staff in general are the ones who don't oppose this, but I've only known about this for like, a few hours, keep in mind. I dunno, I guess we'll see what happens, but in my personal opinion, this is a bit of a drastic change just for a score v2 that nobody really asked for. (If people really did ask for it though, feel free to correct me.)

So you're going to hate the mode "you fell in love with" because of a new scoring system ? Well that's what I call true love.

I mean do you guys ACTUALLY looked at what this "MASSIVE" "HUGE" "DRASTIC" modification changes on gameplay ? Well, nearly nothing. Nearly everyone hits sliders / spinners / finishers now, so giving them importance will be only a better thing. If you like taiko now, you'll like it on Score v2. If you hate it now, then you'll hate it on score v2 too.

After 2 days of Score V2 gameplay, i think the only things that should be debated are HP / Notelocking / Finishers. Because everything else is nearly the same as before, even better tbh. Well it's late here for me, so maybe I'll detail what I think later. BUT PLEASE if you didn't try score v2 on a large of maps, then dont even talk about it, or you're just someone being too emotionnal. Which... I'm pretty sure is the case of a lot of people complaining here.

Yeah I am perfectly fine with them changing finishers to 4x score because that way even a 50% hit is still worth more than a 100% hit regular note. So it'll still incentivise people to hit them over playing it safe. I also think the slider and spinner change are fine barring maps with ninja sliders/spinners. (Although I do worry about the 1/4 timing for songs with extremely high BPM but hopefully 30% requirement shouldn't make it a miss)

The only changes I have a major issue with are the HP change & finishers giving a miss/combobreak

Also the 1000000 point score on maps I will it I like as it gives an idea how close to perfection you are

Arrival wrote: 4l3j3n

I mean do you guys ACTUALLY looked at what this "MASSIVE" "HUGE" "DRASTIC" modification changes on gameplay ? Well, nearly nothing. Nearly everyone hits sliders / spinners / finishers now, so giving them importance will be only a better thing. If you like taiko now, you'll like it on Score v2. If you hate it now, then you'll hate it on score v2 too.

Do you have statistics on that?
That's like saying none plays converts and here is n1doking...

The concerns voiced regarding drumroll- and spinnerusage in mapping and how they would play out in the new context can't just be breezed off without thinking.
I for example often like to hit drumrolls with some custom rhythm I deem fitting when I have the impression that spamming all the ticks through doesn't fit the song in that place. And based on how drumrolls used to work maybe this is even what the mapper intended?
The same goes for the selected HP value as well so you should at least take a careful look instead of saying "nah, everything's fine because literally nothing changes". That's definitely wrong because things do change even if they actually end up being fine.

As far as I understood it, the intention of Taiko score v2 is to create a scoring system that is easier to understand for the clueless viewer and as such we get the analogies with 1m score and health to the other modes.
I'm not sure if the current setup is a success because as already mentioned, the mechanic of gaining score is less transparent with the arbitrary cap and the unknown scaling of combo- and accuracyscore which is also impossible to tell apart from each other. I think the possibility of losing score does not really make a scoring system easier to understand either.
I think I can just repeat my already voiced opinion here: The Taiko v1 scoring system is fairly straightforward, easy to understand and does a good job overall. I don't see a value in changing it to some weird values with new calculations just to have the same number as in the other modes when you lose some significant bits on the way that the other scoring systems (specifically std+ctb v1) never offered.

The premise of making all elements contribute to the score meaningfully is good from a viewing perspective though. I don't think the intended mechanics for the elements are suited to make their way into regular Taiko as they are now but for a tournament - why not? There have already been quite some comments on the finisher-mechanic though but it looks like you have an eye on it already. Same for notelock.
Health is just...meh. Taiko is not balanced around it like that. I see how the healthsystem of the other modes is easier to understand for a novice but I really don't think that this small benefit outweighs the balancing of the health and potential player or team deaths. Especially considering that Loctav wants to have the pool being significantly harder than last years...while it may be interesting from a competitive perspective as mentioned by Tasha such stuff is absolutely awful to watch when it ends up happening and most importantly - the team/player that dies on a spike with the new system would have lost the map in 99% of cases anyway! The major difference is that it feels worse and less "gg".

Tasha wrote: 4q5r3n

We can't even remove converts from rank because of people who oppose it

who?

i mean if you'r gonna force scoreV2 over pple's opinions, why not force that too?? (which is actually something we want LOL)


edit : cheaters give their opinions, only on osu ↓

will this be exclusive to tournaments or do you actually have plans to push this new system for the entire mode?

asking before i share my opinions on what the changes should be because i see a lot of people talking about converted maps here when i don't think they're understanding that this will only be for tournaments.

Nofool wrote: 5r1252

Tasha wrote: 4q5r3n

We can't even remove converts from rank because of people who oppose it

who?

i mean if you'r gonna force scoreV2 over pple's opinions, why not force that too?? (which is actually something we want LOL)

Exact ... who's oppose? ...

obtain rank based in converteds EZ+DT is pathetic ... I even regret having Holy Orders with Easy