[offtopic]I'm not even sure if they really pubbled a map or not

there's no logo or pic that says they've done so.[/offtopic]

I guess the number of BAT should increase (not the MAT ) so that they could keep up with all these maps.

The number of active BATs has descreased, and from what I can tell hardly any of them are utilizing the protobub log. I think one of the main issues with MAT effectiveness is that we don't have forum integration so we can't give pubbles that s/BATs can see, thus giving them less of an impact. (I also think MATs should be able to pop bubbles)

A purple bubble logo next to the map's title would be cool. I also think that pubbled maps should be moved next to the bubbled maps. (In the Pending beatmaps forum) Not all high-priority maps have pubbles

I still don't know what MAT is supposed to be. It has no solid future in my eyes, to say the least. That said, things are changing soon so it's probably best to avoid this potential conflict. If you are going to continue this discussion please avoid starting a flame war and stay constructive.

hehehe, I <3 Modding, and i'm no MAT, wouldn't need it to do what i need to do

Beuchi-chan wrote: 4p3y17

I've seen so many protobubbled maps that have a lot of mod posts after the protobubble post... Imo this is what makes MATs useless.

and IMO that's what made this thread useful. The OP was far more useless than anything else discussed in the thread, having made a statement with no justification behind it.

EEeee wrote: 1o6w4y

hehehe, I <3 Modding, and i'm no MAT, wouldn't need it to do what i need to do

awp wrote: 2bo4d

The OP was far more useless than anything else discussed in the thread, having made a statement with no justification behind it.

This is how you start discussions/troll.

Like someone else has said, imo, The main reason why the MAT's seem useless is because the p-bubbles they give are not visible, because of how they are not integrated into the site, and instead are listed in a massive list, called the protobubble log. Of course, it seems that integrating them into the site is not an easy task, as well as it generally being low priority, so that likely won't change soon, so most people won't even know if a map has been protobubbled, which is why they seem useless.

tl;dr - imo, MAT's are not all that important currently.

JarJarJacob wrote: 4044k

awp wrote: 2bo4d

The OP was far more useless than anything else discussed in the thread, having made a statement with no justification behind it.

This is how you troll.

Fixed.

If you want to start a discussion, actually have some fucking justification behind it in the OP.

sometimes it takes a troll's message to get others to really talk about what needs to be done.
I mean WTF is the MAT. It really doesn't do anything, it's just a Gaint subfourm of meaningless waste, most of the pubbles I have looked at are to be popped and it's like they give them out like stars.

Mogsworth wrote: 145u62

If you want to start a discussion, actually have some fucking justification behind it in the OP.

Or I could provoke a response in a thread by forcing a direct message. At the moment, I really don't know what to think about the MAT. I'm seeing what the community has to say and that, I thought, was the best way of doing it.

ztrot wrote: 1s6e

sometimes it takes a troll's message to get others to really talk about what needs to be done.
I mean WTF is the MAT. It really doesn't do anything, it's just a Gaint subfourm of meaningless waste, most of the pubbles I have looked at are to be popped and it's like they give them out like stars.

Since MAT is something between mapper and BAT, don't expect perfect results. If you find a pubble that should be popped, just mod it and bubble it later, it's a proto-bubble after all. Too many guys are popping pubbles but don't take care of the map afterwards.

JarJarJacob wrote: 4044k

I'm seeing what the community has to say and that, I thought, was the best way of doing it.

Well, at the end of the day, it worked.

I told you so

I think the concept behind the MAT team is good: an experienced modder (MAT) gives map proto-bubbles to show the BAT team that someone who knows what they are talking about deems the map as quality. This in theory would make the BAT's lives easier since they would be able to focus on maps that have already ed through a quality assurance check, which means less modding and more bubbles/ranks.

Unfortunately, with the limited resources given to the MATs the execution of this system hasn't really flown.

Dangaard wrote: 2w5u1t

ztrot wrote: 1s6e

sometimes it takes a troll's message to get others to really talk about what needs to be done.
I mean WTF is the MAT. It really doesn't do anything, it's just a Gaint subfourm of meaningless waste, most of the pubbles I have looked at are to be popped and it's like they give them out like stars.

Since MAT is something between mapper and BAT, don't expect perfect results. If you find a pubble that should be popped, just mod it and bubble it later, it's a proto-bubble after all. Too many guys are popping pubbles but don't take care of the map afterwards.

most likely because the map is no where near bubble standards

Beuchi and 0_o pretty much summed up my opinion on this matter: There are too many MATs that are pubbling non-bubble-worthy maps; There is no visual impact for normal s.

Derekku Chan wrote: r91v

Beuchi and 0_o pretty much summed up my opinion on this matter: There are too many MATs that are pubbling non-bubble-worthy maps; There is no visual impact for normal s.

This.

Essentially, I feel like there should either be less MATs or more strict MATs, since if the maps being pubbled are not bubble-worthy , the problem lies with the MAT.

I left mat team because there's no use for anybody to be in it.
Awesome to see a topic about it now (:

purple name is the new trend around here

oh, we have to mod?
dammit

I do see some potential for the MAT, but I can't deny there are faulty pubbles sometimes. Wasn't there any kind of penalty for MATs when a pubble is popped?

Also the visual icon etc., everything else has already been discussed.

btw this may not have been established but the MAT should be a resource for mapping, not just for getting shit ranked. If you have a mapping-related question that isn't answered in the FAQ, your first instinct should be to ask a MAT.

In retrospect when you think about it, the MAT are doing their job? They're modding a lot and providing good advice, right? Let's move forward with that assumption instead of doing research. If that's the case, it's a success. They're for assisting mappers, not for speeding up the ranking of a map.

People these days are all rank, rank, rank.

Though given how common pubbles are being distributed, I am also led to believe that MAT are overlooking common grievances.

I wasn't aware that the MAT were supposed to help people like that and I haven't seen other people approach them simply because they are MATs. Perhaps that should be made more clear somehow?

JarJarJacob wrote: 4044k

I wasn't aware that the MAT were supposed to help people like that and I haven't seen other people approach them simply because they are MATs. Perhaps that should be made more clear somehow?

I agree that it's very ambiguous. I propose a change to the team name.

Hey, no need to be like that, Derekku, because there's really nothing that the MAT does in that way that regular s don't.

JarJarJacob wrote: 4044k

there's really nothing that the MAT does in that way that regular s don't.

I'd say the main thing is that "MATs can give potential bubbles" but obviously that's where the problem lies.

JarJarJacob wrote: 4044k

Am I the only one that feels this way?

They help me a lot. I can't expect any help from BATs without a pubble ;_; Unless the map is good, but it happens rarely

I think I might have mentioned the fact of MATs being a MAPPING ASSISTANCE TEAM in my MAT application, but I'm not sure ~.

Anyways, I'm personally fine with the MAT team, I just feel that we need to promote some of them to BATs, as I've seen a lot of people going "omg no bats i hatsune hat u ;~;~;~;"

But yes a symbol that showed pubbled maps would be really helpful ~.


Also, multiple pubbles would be nice. The star system can be abused like hell so crap maps can get high star rankings. Having multiple pubbles will be hard to abuse, as the people pubbling are actually experienced.

awp wrote: 2bo4d

They're for assisting mappers, not for speeding up the ranking of a map.

Zekira wrote: 54232b

awp wrote: 2bo4d

They're for assisting mappers, not for speeding up the ranking of a map.

So that means modders don't assist mappers?

Personally I think the Quality Assurance Team (QAT) would be more accurate than Mapping Assistance.

Zekira wrote: 54232b

awp wrote: 2bo4d

They're for assisting mappers, not for speeding up the ranking of a map.

0_o wrote: 5b1i2c

I think the concept behind the MAT team is good: an experienced modder (MAT) gives map proto-bubbles to show the BAT team that someone who knows what they are talking about deems the map as quality. This in theory would make the BAT's lives easier since they would be able to focus on maps that have already ed through a quality assurance check, which means less modding and more bubbles/ranks.

I really agree with this, as the name implies MAT (Mapping Assistance Team) They are experienced modder that assist mapper with their map

0_o wrote: 5b1i2c

Personall I think the Quality Assurance Team (QAT) would be more accurate than Mapping Assistance.

If the name change to Quality Assurance Team won't that mean they really have to be more carefull with giving pubble

Gens wrote: 5w2d1u

Wasn't there any kind of penalty for MATs when a pubble is popped?

I think that something like this needs to be put into place to eliminate the excessive pubbling...

Derekku Chan wrote: r91v

Gens wrote: 5w2d1u

Wasn't there any kind of penalty for MATs when a pubble is popped?

I think that something like this needs to be put into place to eliminate the excessive pubbling...

If this were to happen, it should only happen when something serious is missed. Pubbles are popped for trivial reasons all the time.

Sallad4ever wrote: 7222n

0_o wrote: 5b1i2c

Personall I think the Quality Assurance Team (QAT) would be more accurate than Mapping Assistance.

If the name change to Quality Assurance Team won't that mean they really have to be more carefull with giving pubble

I don't know how much difference a name change would make in reality, but even if it did have some subconscious influence, being more careful is a good thing, right?

awp wrote: 2bo4d

They're for assisting mappers, not for speeding up the ranking of a map.

I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that in the introduction page for them, their purpose was to speed up and refine the process of ranking. If I'm wrong, then ignore me.

*cough *cough

I agree with the fact that MAT shouldn't be used to get shit ranked, I really get annoyed when a BAT tells me they won't mod my map unless it's pubbled -_-, i mean, really......

There should only be a punishment for popped pubbles if it's something large, such as wrong timing, unrankable stuff, or anything else. Punishing a MAT because someone thought a clap would be cool somewhere isn't really too hot.

0_o wrote: 5b1i2c

If this were to happen, it should only happen when something serious is missed. Pubbles are popped for trivial reasons all the time.

Just like 0_o said in his last post, CDFA

In a way, MAT are very usefulll because they actually help mapper, I think a MAT is useless if they not doing any help to every mapper either beginner or pro, not because of the pubble

Blue Dragon wrote: 42171m

awp wrote: 2bo4d

They're for assisting mappers, not for speeding up the ranking of a map.

So that means modders don't assist mappers?

Please, tell me where you drew the conclusion "Because A, not B." Because the MAT are something, nowhere is it stated or implied that anything else isn't.

Your inability to process your own flaws in logic actually offends my brain.

The whole idea about the MAT is that it was, from the start, a team designed to bridge the gap between the BAT and the general community.

The whole idea didn't flow because those in the MAT position are either not capable, or cannot be bothered to enforce the standards that they are expected to enforce.

In that sense, maybe these MATs should try harder or leave altogether.

Mapping is a constantly evolving thing and hence, so are the rules bounding it. We've collectively turned mapping into an art form of sorts, so let's keep it that way.

MATs will not be useless if they do what's already expected of them to do. But as of present I agree with topic title.

Pasonia wrote: 2zd64

The whole idea didn't flow because those in the MAT position are either not capable, or cannot be bothered to enforce the standards that they are expected to enforce.

You can't blame the ineffectiveness of the MAT soley on the people in it. Most of us are actually very capable of the position; several are even BAT worthy. Sure there may be a few "weak links", but honestly, the reason why the system isn't working is because of the lousiness of the current makeshift pubble system. The fact that the active MAT brutally outnumber the active BAT right now doesn't help either - our not-so-useful pubbles are piling up faster than BATs can look at them (and not all of them do).

CDFA wrote: 6d6j4w

There should only be a punishment for popped pubbles if it's something large, such as wrong timing, unrankable stuff, or anything else. Punishing a MAT because someone thought a clap would be cool somewhere isn't really too hot.

Think of it as "if it were a reason to pop an actual bubble, then it's probably serious". I alone have had to pop many pubbles because of big issues or unrankable things. There's quite a few MAT that are being too lenient and tossing around pubbles like they're candy, and that's where the majority of the current "issues" reside.

Pasonia wrote: 2zd64

The whole idea about the MAT is that it was, from the start, a team designed to bridge the gap between the BAT and the general community.

The whole idea didn't flow because those in the MAT position are either not capable, or cannot be bothered to enforce the standards that they are expected to enforce.

In that sense, maybe these MATs should try harder or leave altogether.

Mapping is a constantly evolving thing and hence, so are the rules bounding it. We've collectively turned mapping into an art form of sorts, so let's keep it that way.

MATs will not be useless if they do what's already expected of them to do. But as of present I agree with topic title.

lol

I'm gonna say what I think by first stating one of the reasons why I ed the MAT.

I wanted to the MAT to help improve the quality of maps, not to get them ranked, I wanted to make sure that a map I pubbled would be seen by a BAT and bubbled, with no or only subjective modding, and I try my hardest to make sure that happens.

The problem is, I don't see a lot of the MAT with this mentality, all they do (as others have said) is treat pubbles like a normal star. It kinda makes me sick. I believe all of the MAT should look in every nook and cranny of the song folder to see if there is a problem. Making it so BATs will just have to do a little dusting instead of picking up all the trash.

rust45 wrote: 3l5iv

I wanted to the MAT to help improve the quality of maps, not to get them ranked

huh? ._.

The proto-bubble system as it is now is somewhat of a rather obvious failure particularly due to the reasons mentioned in this thread - pubbles are given out like candy at the easter show, very few BAT can actually be bothered to mod stuff from the pubble list, and as a consequence, they are effectively rendered meaningless.

Discussion is going on internally as to the future of the proto-bubble system - as things are now, it may be phased out entirely.

The MAT was never intended to just house the proto-bubble system - it was more of an afterthought than anything else. MAT are supposed to be the cream of the crop in of modding expertise and not just a means to heighten the speed at which maps are ranked. The title itself is one primarily of recognition of ability, and due to the failure of the system, that has been marred to some extent.

Should the proto-bubble system pop off, the internal focus of the MAT will switch away from maintaining that system and more into collaboratively honing a collective entity of modding expertise.

However, I am noticing a trend in people talking shit about the MAT but shying away when I approach them to offer any solid evidence to their claims. If you have issues with an MAT member or doubt their competence and have the capacity to prove it, me in-game via PM or by the forums and discuss it with me in person - if you actually care about the game and want to do something helpful other than smacktalk somebody when they're not around, then you should have the gall to approach me directly to help sort the system out.

The response to the alternative should be pretty obvious.

Either way, something is being done. I agree that the purpose of the MAT in their current context is not acceptable and that I am to blame for letting it progress to this point. If it does not improve under the measures that I have set in motion, then I will look to seek somebody more suitable for the position than myself.

yeah brosky you messed up big time :p

After quite some thought, the proto-bubble system has been discontinued in its use.

The MAT will switch focus from maintaining that broken system into generally helping out the community and providing nominations for the ranking charts.

The title always was one of recognition. It was wrong for that status to be marred by a poorly designed system.

MAT are still required to actually contribute - it isn't a free lunch or anything.

YAY ?

I don't know if this has been suggested but...

How about a team consisting of one BAT and three MATs? It's more of a small-group scale where the BAT consults with the MATs on a particular map, deciding whether to bubble/rank it and at the same time giving MATs some pointers on how bubble/rank requests should be handled. Of course, this requires a level of diligence on modding and a sense of responsibility from both BATs and MATs, but it could result into better handling of mod requests. This could also result in some sort of "pre-BAT training", if needed be.

Yeah, just giving my two cents. M.Bison cents, if you may.

EDIT: Jarjar, you fail at trolling. It's only a successful troll if everyone rages. :3

Saw this coming. An idea to improve a system takes much more planning, this however felt very unplanned, and it got implemented way to fast without a test period (unless you call "this" a test period, but lol).

Okey I start my post with this:
"MAT are supposed to be the cream of the crop in of modding expertise" by ephemeral, and I agree 100% in this.
In my perspective MAT team it's much better what BAT team, they work faster, make better mods and helps a lot, when a BAT get one of my maps is at least 95% perfect or more, BAT that mod my songs can say that I have songs bubbled -> ranked without mod of BAT or pop, WHY?, only for work of MAT team they are realy good. I know already more good MATs what good BATs, I know more lazy BATs what lazy MATs. So "MATs are pretty useless" yea it's true, no because they don't work, it's because BATs don't work at the same speed.

And obviously I come here for another reason, I already speak with some MATs and BATs about a new system of ranking songs, My idea? Well I try of explain it:
1: No more MAT's, I don't mean take off the people that is MAT, I mean convert them in BAT and fill the gap between new and old mapers otherwise.
2: Why a mod/mapper star it's equal to "normal players"? A mod/mapper have experience and more knowledgeable that normal players, why don't use them more correctly?, I propose do this mod/mapper star = 1+(NK X 0,1)+(RMX0,5) NK=Number kudosu and RM=Ranked Maps, and max. 5 stars. Plus this do this, explained in this IMG:


benefits of this:
1: All songs need be moded, a song can't be ranked without protobubble, at least needs 8 mod/mapper of 5 stars each one.
2: Reduces work of BAT(BAT+MAT) because they get songs at least with "8 good mods" of mod/mapper. (because 5stars x 8 = 40 sp)
3: Avoid BAT4BAT, yea >:3, no more fast rank songs.
4: It's hard get 40 sp only with normal stars (I can do it but now I try avoid this)


Well that's all xD sry for my bad english, how I said, I tell this to some MATs and BATs and they say "It's a good idea" but still needs more details or make modifications, this is all I can do for this game (apart of make songs) I study "Computer Engineering, degree in engineering sciences" (my third year now) and I already know things about systems and things like this, and osu have a rly bad system of ranking songs and still can be much better, take off pubbled system is make things worst.

How my teacher say "everything depends on people".

=)

PD: I forgot this, All MAT can't be BAT lol.
PD2: U can always ignore my post like always lol

*head explodes*

I did not go through the whole thing but to me, the things that need to be changed are:

Deciding if a map is good or not should be done by MULTIPLE people, since it's very subjective. Putting all the stress on ONE bat to rank a map is horrible because: 1. new bats are often scared to fuck up, 2. the opinion of one bat is not the opinion of everyone

It would be far better if, let's say, a certain amount of BATs had to mark it as rankable for it to go through, and the exact system could be applied to MATs.

Another problem is friend modding. This is completely understandable, but nonetheless, if you are very active in the community and have many friends, it's far easier for your maps to be ranked. There should be a system that throws random non-chosen beatmaps at the MATs/BATs, and they have to go through a certain number of these per week to keep their status.

Finally, with this, you can set up a ratio showing how good a BAT/MAT is by checking the ratio of maps he marked as good, and the number of maps who actually got ranked, instead of just having how many "posts" he made, which doesn't assure QUALITY posts. It's just like the ranking system showing how much someone plays instead of how good he actually is at the game. rank != accuracy != skills

1. new bats are often scared to fuck up

I kinda disagree with this. From what i noticed before, most newly appointed BATs are really eager to rank something.

...have to go through a certain number of these per week to keep their status.

I putting up something like this before... All they said was.. "being a Mod/BAT is just a voluntary work." so yeah, afterwards i lost motivation because only few mod/bats are active that time.

-o-

my 2 cents:

After this pbubble/MAT thing brought up to this community, after reading the wall of texts about this system..
few things popped into my mind:
1. this will not work, it will only work for a short time. its too sudden. heck, even the kudosu/star system rarely works.
2. bats will become even lazier since they will rarely mod stuffs anymore.

Anyways, I'm not blaming Eph for this, at least he made an effort on how to improve the system which no other BATs (including m--- wait, i'm not a BAT at that time) could do. kudosu to you.

James wrote: 5d1rc

*head explodes* haha

please don't die D:

@James:
Eager or scared, both would lead to problems. One leads to them not learning and the other leads to them fucking up, both of which would be fixed by getting multiple BATs approval.

Also, modding is a voluntary work, but I believe being a MAT or BAT is a status you have to keep. It doesn't just mean that "you've been awesome so now you can do whatever you please and only rank your friends map".

Ph0X wrote: 6q4f49

Putting all the stress on ONE bat to rank a map is horrible

You mean two, right?

Ph0X wrote: 6q4f49

Finally, with this, you can set up a ratio showing how good a BAT/MAT...

stop stealing my secret plan ideas. i call hacks. nevertheless, you are thinking in the right direction.

peppy wrote: 73101g

Ph0X wrote: 6q4f49

Putting all the stress on ONE bat to rank a map is horrible

You mean two, right?

One BAT ranks it. Another sets it up to be ranked through a bubble.

Bubble and rank are equal though? Both hold equal responsibility in the ranking of a map. Popping of a bubble is as bad as an unrank.

Well, I'm not quite familiar with the pubble/bubble system, but from what I've seen, only the person who ranks it gets blamed when something is wrong with the map. But yes, I guess it does go through two people, which makes it slightly better, but imo, it should be more.

MATs are useful. Imagine osu! without MATs.

There are plenty number of unrankable maps which need a lot of mods. There are also many mappers who don't have any skill to map songs. MATs willing to mod such that map and help new mappers (whose maps get less attention) to map properly. But, I don't think BATs want to mod them. They just mod high SP maps, or their friends' maps.

Pubble system does useful for me. Pubble means that the pubbled map is rankable but needs more attention from other modders, MATs, or BATs due to rank it. Pubble doesn't mean that the pubbled map has no mistake. Pubble can be very useful if we use it properly. Like, if BATs just want to mod pubbled maps, or pubble is required before bubble.

If people think that MATs are useless, let's remove them all. I won't complain.

Ph0X wrote: 6q4f49

It would be far better if, let's say, a certain amount of BATs had to mark it as rankable for it to go through, and the exact system could be applied to MATs.

I disagree with this; it's already hard enough to get 1-2 BATs to check your map(Unless you're friends with them, but befriending someone for that kind of privilege is something I wouldn't resort to do), let alone needing even more to get your map ranked.

I agree with the rest of your post though, interesting ideas.

@Astom's chart : 40 SP for a protobubble? Okay first of all it's easy as hell to get a lot of people to star your map since people throw stars like nothing these days even it's a bad map, secondly; a map doesn't need a ridiculous amount of SP to be considered a good one. And hey let's not forget kudo stars.

VanMoNky wrote: 72vy

MATs are useful. Imagine osu! without MATs.

There are plenty number of unrankable maps which need a lot of mods. There are also many mappers who don't have any skill to map songs. MATs willing to mod such that map and help new mappers (whose maps get less attention) to map properly. But, I don't think BATs want to mod them. They just mod high SP maps, or their friends' maps.

Pubble system does useful for me. Pubble means that the pubbled map is rankable but needs more attention from other modders, MATs, or BATs due to rank it. Pubble doesn't mean that the pubbled map has no mistake. Pubble can be very useful if we use it properly. Like, if BATs just want to mod pubbled maps, or pubble is required before bubble.

If people think that MATs are useless, let's remove them all. I won't complain.

seriously get out.

i'm locking this thread because of this post. good work.