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Taiko Modding Academy 2n504x

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~ WELCOME TO THE TAIKO MODDING ACADEMY! ~


I'm creating this thread in order to increase the number of modders in the community, with some tips or steps to follow in order to improve the current maps in the Pending section. Any player who knows some notions of this game mode is welcomed to participate! Also, if you have problems with modding or things you are unsure about, please do not hestitate to ask in this thread!

Weekly Hint: You can check a pattern by its sound, look and how it plays.
(If one of these factors doesn't apply, the pattern can be questioned. The more factors do not apply, the more questionable the pattern becomes and should be probably changed.)

Previous Hint:
  1. Always check by yourself if the notes in a map are snapped correctly. Use ctrl+a.
    (Sometimes the the notes are snapped 1ms wrong due to timing changes, which AiMod doesn't recognize.)
  2. Try to mod from mapper's perspective.
    (We want to help the mapper, not remap the map in our way we would like to see it.)
  3. When a beatmap has too many issues don't be afraid to suggest a remap!
    (In this way, you save the mapper's and your time. Provide also some points which helps remaking the map.)
  4. When modding, don't focus on finding issues where aren't any. Instead, give suggestions when the beatmap is overall fine.
    (Sometimes beatmaps are ready for rank. So it's okay to tell mapper the map is fine or give maybe additional personal suggestions.)

I've ed a Pending map. What can I do now? 4l6q3u


STEP 1: Check the folder and the files inside it.

to follow the General Ranking Criteria and the Taiko Ranking Criteria. AIMod in-game and external programs as AIBat are quite helpful to fulfill this step. There are some particularities to consider here:
  1. Help to add some info here!
STEP 2: Check out the metadata.

There are some external pages where you can check if the Artist, Title and so on are the correct ones. Some common and handful webpages are:
  1. vgmdb.net: For videogames and anime.
  2. Touhou Wiki: Specialised in Touhou songs.
  3. Vocaloid Wiki: Specialised in Vocaloid songs.
  4. RemyWiki: Specialised in Beatmania and Bemani songs.
  5. Digital Emergency: Specialised in Beatmania and Bemani songs.
  6. Help to add more info here!
STEP 3: Check if the timing is the correct one.

Put your headphones on, and show your special abilities to detect timing incongruities! Some help:
  1. Playing: When hitting a note, you can see if you hit it too soon or too late. It is a perfect comparison to the headphones.
  2. BPM Analyzers: External programs such as MixMeister help you to detect the correct BPM. Take into that it'd only work with single-BPM songs, and it doesn't detect the correct offset.
  3. Timing Analyzer v0.32.4 by statementreply: Tool to detect an accurate BPM and Offset in most of the mp3 files. Only working for single-BPM songs!
  4. Charles445's advanced timing videotutorials: Where you can see how to time different types of songs according to their BPM.
  5. LKs' timing tutorial (Chinese):
  6. Help to add more info here!
STEP 4: Test the difficulties over and over to find some possible solutions to improve the map.

If you're already an experienced player, you won't have much problems to test any kind of maps. Moreover, you'd know already what is difficult or not, or what is fun or not. For any other players who aren't so experienced, or who want to learn to mod, there are some stuff to consider:
  1. Kantan: The easiest level of the mapset. It should use a quite simple rhythm without following too much the vocal or off-beats.
  2. Futsuu: Possible use of simple off-beats and more 1/2 patterns.
  3. Muzukashii: The perfect level for the average player. Longer 1/2 patterns and the introduction of simple 1/4 patterns shall fit here.
  4. Oni: The use of patterns become complex and denser, especially 1/4 patterns.
  5. Inner / Ura Oni: Similar to Oni, but it is more of a challenge for the players!
For more information you can check out the [Guide] Mapping Taiko Difficulties to make sure a difficulty has been mapped in a proper / reasonable way.


Also, the following questions are the ones that modders have to ask themselves, in order to improve the quality of the map:
  1. Does the difficulty spread make sense? Probably the most important one. Mapsets should be enjoyable for any kind of player! Think about possible solutions for a map-set which spread can be made better, like adding a new difficulty or refining the existing one.
  2. Does the label / diff-name of the difficulty fit? A difficulty should be labeled right. Making it easier than usual is possible, but not harder.
  3. Is the SV reasonable? It is important to keep the SV natural to the songs BPM.
  4. Does a pattern sound, play and look well? These three factors are important for a pattern. If one isn't ensured, the pattern can be possibly made better.
  5. Could a beat fit in this point / be avoidable? To create a good rhythm and avoid overmapping.
  6. Does the map have emphasized / unstressed parts? Stanza-technically this is really important. Check how the kiai, SV changes or simple breaks and gaps has been used in the map to avoid having patterns which might feel monotonically to the player.
  7. What was the mappers intention? Keep asking this yourself over and over again. You are the modder; not the mapper. So you should respect mappers intention and the way he made the map. Think about how he mapped(E.g.: beat-, vocal-, own pattern based).
  8. Help to add more info here!

Original thread: Deif
I think I might be in, but I'll always take the spot of the modder of the month *runs*

Finally glad that project came into something concrete. Let's hope people get into taiko modding even more.

Throwing some maps though:

Pending
https://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/s/100935 - Umetora - Ifuudoudou (Will eventually get resurrected)
Good luck with the Academy, Ono-sama :_>
We have needed something like this for a while!

You can sign me up as a modder, I do plan on becoming more active again, I just need to get used to it hahaha.

As for Pending:
#ShamelessSelfPromotion

Stuff that could be added/fixed to the OP:
In Step 1:
  1. Checking the MP3 bitrate and BG dimensions by right clicking and going into "Properties". I always do this when I mod.
In Step 2:
  1. Digital Emergency Exit*, not specialized in Bemani/Beatmania. Just put "Specialized in BMS Songs", as BMS is not d with Bemani in such way.
  2. Diverse Direct for Diverse System releases and various doujin/indie album releases.
  3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytus For Cytus song list in Title / Artist format
Modder of the month; I haven't been paying attention too much lately, but I nominate CoroQuetz as he doesn't nazi-mod but makes sure to give reason as to why you should make a change, and he respects the mapper's style. (idc if he's not on the list he's still good!)

Btw, if anyone has questions about BMS/Bemani songs/artists, feel free to hit me up as it is my specialty. (If someone is insecure which OST/Game/Event a song is from, what correct metadata would be etc, or if they want me to grab them a high-quality MP3 of a BMS as I am able to do that.)
The Vocaloid Wiki and Touhou Wiki are not very useful lol, there are better sites that give more information, such as http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki
well
if you want i will help this academy (free for mod every day if not busy)
and some maps that pending
Doraemon no Uta
Snow* - Chain (TV Size)
Feel free to include me here. Just keep in mind my schedule is probably going to be very busy the next couple of months so I really only have time for a couple of mods a month <_<

While I'm here, I'd suggest Masquerade as a map to be added to the current pending maps.

Deif wrote: 4o495

Good luck with the Academy, Ono-sama :_>
waghh add me please, ono :oops:

btw my maps :
Boys Like Girls - The Great Escape WIP
add me too https://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/s/138500

thanks~!
Also add me please~ nano feat. MY FIRST STORY - SAVIOR OF SONG WIP


Thanks~ :)
Hi, I should contribute with some mods, but while the inspiration comes in (and finish my pending requests), please add some of my pending maps >~<
PSYCHIC LOVER - Samurai Sentai Shinkenger
sign up as modder
I may be able to this.

Here are some of my taiko maps (pending)
Infinite Stratos Cast - BEAUTIFUL SKY (TV Size)

Edit: omg am I not qualified to as modder? :o
ww..wanted to sign up as modder and

throw maps here
->Pet na Kanojotachi - Kimi ga Yume wo Tsuretekita (TV Size)
' up as a modder aswell, since I'm starting to mod regularly.
I'm starting to become a modder again and I need something to invigorate me, this seems like a good idea to do so, I guess.

Pending map
http://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/forum/t/155427 Amuro vs Killer - Mei
Topic Starter
All maps and modders added.
Keep an eye on these maps for your own modding, so I can check what you've done.
Does a pattern sound / play / look well?
Remove the word sound. We all know maps don't play good just because they sound good.

Anyways, good luck getting this going. :)

Maybe I can find people to mod my maps. :?
Topic Starter
Oh, you are right! What I ment was, does a pattern sound, play and look well? Of course, not always all three components are given, but in most cases it fits well I think. Thank you for mentioning it, MMzz! (Hm, let's see if I can find time to mod your map heh)

I will check soon the mods from the younger modders. Gezo, you do not count in. You are not new at all. lol
I'm in the list, I count !
Stop being rude to me Ono :(
Could've swore I posted to be added to the list. But I guess it was removed or something.
I want to be added to the modders list. Also, some of my maps for the list:

Pending: Foo Fighters - Back And Forth
For Approval: Infected Mushroom - The Pretender

Love wrote: y1x6s

Could've swore I posted to be added to the list. But I guess it was removed or something.
You haven't posted, so well
you can still anytime you want lol
Add me as a modder I guess
I just finished recruit training so I'm more free now
Think I could do something this month, add me to list please

oh yeah, pending: Comp - Gensou no Satellite
Topic Starter
Gezo has send me a PM with all mods I need to consider from january (thanks!).
Give me some time to check these. I will update the OP soon.
Hai, pending now~^^~

https://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/s/112733 - Baek ji-young - After a Long Time
half of march, still no recieved :roll:
Topic Starter
Well, first I didn't planed to do it due to exam stuff. Then I did so. And now exam is hitting me. Haha...
When everything is over, I might be much more active again.
Topic Starter
~Update~


Replaced the "Modder of the Month" with "Weekly Hint".
→ Placing every week a new modding-hint which I gave from time to time some other modders before. In case you feel unsure about one, post it in this thread!
→→ All hints from the past will be stored together.

Updated map list. Only Pending maps are remaining.

Feel free to post any question you have about modding into this thread! That's what the TMA stands for as well. You are also allowed to answer other peoples question!
Can you make the hint bigger ?
Topic Starter
Weekly hint updated.
: You are always allowed to ask your questions in this thread.

OnosakiHito wrote: y4t4u

Weekly hint updated.
Telling someone straight up to remap is extremely demotivating and rude.
Remapping is a decision the mapper needs to make themselves.
Topic Starter
Don't know how you guys do it in osu, but in Taiko we do it in an polite way with a lot of evidences. At the end, we always let the decision to the mapper. In my case, it rather motivated me when lepidopodus told me 4 years ago to remap something by considering what could be improved in the remap. I had the same impression from people who got such suggestion from me as well.

Again, no idea how you guys explain to mappers in osu to remap something, but in Taiko we never had such problems at all.
And in my opinion this helps a lot more than having a 30cm long mod post which no one wants really to read or which is at least really tiring to read, sorry. lol

Maybe I should rewrite it, so people don't misunderstand it.
Remap in taiko is easier than remap in other mode

And taiko map should be checked as a whole, if the whole flow or the block is totally messy remap is the only way

Lunati wrote: 47361

Remap in taiko is easier than remap in other mode
I think it's not really mode-related. Every mode requires the knownledge and being as perfect as possible. Also the amount of time is practicually the same.

The mapper itself should be aware how does his map looks like. If he see that the has a lot of issue which needs to be fixed or a remap require then he really should do that and should not stay with arguments like "old style" or "being too lazy". Also the excuse "to do it better with the next maps" shouldn't be accepted. imo it depends how many people suggest to remap the Difficulty or even the Mapset. if one does then this may goes in the own taste and opinion but I think there is something wrong if 6, 7, 8 or more do that. And a lot of issues are obvious and don't need a long talk about why they're bad and need to be changed.

OnosakiHito wrote: y4t4u

And in my opinion this helps a lot more than having a 30cm long mod post which no one wants really to read or which is at least really tiring to read, sorry. lol
this. If you already suggest sooooo much in a Difficulty or Mapset, and let us say it's a TV Size Map.. then making huge Mod posts aren't really helpful since they completely change the origin map to something.. different which isn't really the point in mapping. Then it's better to suggest the person to remap the difficulties or Mapset by his own purpose.
Topic Starter
Updated weekly hint with a latency of 1 week. =D
y no new weekly hint ;w;
why do you this post
Topic Starter
Updated weekly hint. Due to exams I couldn't take care of it. Now it should be fine.
Topic Starter
Now it's the monthly hint! lol
Added new hint.

: You guys may ask modding related quetsions here! If you have problems with modding or things you are unsure about, please do not hestitate to ask in this thread!
can i ? Oh ok it's dead already
Topic Starter
Just wanted to mention that everyone can post either modding related questions or questions about their map in this thread.
I'm getting pretty often asked in IRC and some questions might be interesting for everyone. So don't hestitate to add your questions here!


Once I can provide more time, I will see to have some update in this project.
where is the yearly hints for year 2014
Topic Starter
I would like to mention once again, that everyone is allowed to post modding related questions or questions about their own maps. Here you are able to talk with all s about certain problems you might encounter when mapping or modding and find together possible solutions. It helps everyone who might have the same problems.
this is the first time i see this thread... wtf
Taiko mapping is so hard though, I tried it out of curiosity and asked for Raiden's opinion(poor Raiden) on my first steps and was quickly discouraged.
What do you think, how good do you have to get at Taiko as a player before you can judge map quality from a mapper-perspective?

Endaris wrote: 5o5c3i

Taiko mapping is so hard though, I tried it out of curiosity and asked for Raiden's opinion(poor Raiden) on my first steps and was quickly discouraged.
What do you think, how good do you have to get at Taiko as a player before you can judge map quality from a mapper-perspective?
depends, you can probably be an "awful" player and be an amazing mapper and you can be like rank 50 and be a pretty bad mapper.

generally though rank 2k is a fine rank for getting decent at mapping. Honestly being a good player doesn't help that much besides telling what plays well and what is fun though, and you can probably just not play at all and still be an alright mapper providing you get good and learn what is good and what is "bad".

I think that answers the question pretty well, ask further if it's still unclear.
words
I was planning on making a separate thread for this, but I suppose I can post in here to avoid flooding.

So, after some weeks of lingering in forums, stalking people in general, and seeing the activity in #taiko in-game, I have noticed a slight increase in the amount of modders we have (maybe because of TNA?). Now, while I am truly glad that this is happening (slight increase of modders which would turn the modders/mappers fraction closer to 1), I am also noticing that the quality of mods is just in a very deplorable standstill (or even getting worse). Also, the BN amount we have is also ridiculously low because of this. What's the problem? Simple. People still complain on not getting their maps ranked, while they do close to nothing to help this (I being like this back then before I started modding and learned my lesson), which is exactly why I'm posting this.

I must quote some great people in here (reference: t/237620/start=165)

_Gezo_ wrote: 516q3b

I'll just say this:

Less complaining. More modding.
case closed.

OnosakiHito wrote: y4t4u

As solution there is not much to say but that people should start mod more by their own and maybe become BNs. Yes, we can try enfaster progress a bit by helping new modders or open diverse threads and guides. But at the end the core solution is clear: People must be more active in modding. And we all know that this isn't one of our strenghts in Taiko. lol

MMzz wrote: 2g46e

Mapping and modding go hand in hand. You have to do both to survive here as a mapper. (For any game mode)
BN are not obligated to mod your map at all. If they say they will mod your map and then don't, yeah that sucks, but it happens. Like I said, BN have no obligation to mod YOUR MAP. They can mod whatever they want. (Just like non-bn can)

Its been this way for 5+ years. Its nothing new. Its nothing we haven't heard before. Start modding to help improve the situation you think is terrible, or shut up.
That said, it would be somewhat hypocritical for me to say this (because I was literally like that back then), but they are completely right.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That topic covered, let's talk about the standstill on modding quantity/quality and the severe lack of Taiko BNs.

I believe this is mostly due to the outstanding laziness of our community, paired with I'm gonna get slapped but I don't care the somewhat selfish attitude of many mappers (myself included). "I just want my map ranked but I don't want to mod anything" basically. While it is inherent to human nature, I believe there should be a possible way to fix this selfishness and laziness while also ending the modding quality/lack of BNs standstill we are currently experiencing. TNA was (in my honest opinion) a nice alternative to go with while we try to find another, more permanent alternative.

I currently lack of innovative ideas, but I do have some generic ideas which would work theoretically.

  1. PROBLEM: lack of active modding (both quantity and quality)
    PROVISIONAL SOLUTION: force people to mod if they want their maps ranked (TNA)
    CONSEQUENCES: rise on the quantity of modding, paired with a standstill OR decrease of modding quality (a.k.a. encourages shitmodding just to enter the queue)
    MY GENERIC IDEA: higher quality mods (upon TNA ' discretion) will have HIGHER CHANCES of getting their map accepted, while total lazy modding (one line mods with a "change d" for example) have lower chances of being accepted.
  2. PROBLEM: lack of Taiko BNs (specially outside TNA)
    PROVISIONAL SOLUTION: ???????
    CONSEQUENCES: people opt for the BNs outside TNA (tasuke and I) so they don't need to mod and only go for TNA when they having modded something less than 3 weeks ago || if one of the BNs outside TNA goes inactive for whatever reasons (me in this case), the other becomes virtually useless, as one BN alone can't rank a map. This could be fixed by QATs, since TNA are not allowed to take requests outside of it.
    The fact that there are BNs outside TNA means that people will mostly look for us to avoid modding before opting to use TNA when we reject them. This, of course, heavily increases the non-TNA BNs' workload (not in my case since I reject almost every request)
    MY GENERIC IDEA: the same as first problem. Encourage higher quality modding by offering them higher rewards. Plus, people learning to do higher quality mods will have also higher chances of *drumrolls*......................... BECOMING BN!!! TWO BIRDS ONE STONE!!!
Now, with all this huge wall of text you'd expect me to give you some kind of advice to improve your modding right? Well, don't be disappointed, I do!

  1. If you're a starter modder: read Ranking Criteria and Appropiate Gameplay Elements here: https://osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org/wiki/Taiko_Ranking_Criteria || It's a very nice way of starting on your modding process. Mod firstly objectively (since you will not understand higher level concepts such as flow, playability, etc.) using ranking criteria, then as you advance in your modding career, start working on these subjective elements!
  2. If you have been modding for a while but still not get the grasp of it: this is specially to those with a kudosu count of 50-80~ who still mod like in their beginnings (which is understandable at some extent). My advice is really, REALLY simple: give a reason on why the mapper should consider changing what you said. If you merely say "d", the mapper (from my point of view), cannot really understand your intentions, and will also think that you're a lazy ass, leading many of the times to many rejections even if the changes would at some point make the map better overall.
  3. If you're an experienced and high quality modder: Keep up the good work!! And also it'd be nice if you could give some advice to newer modders!! We need more people like you!! BECOME BN OR I'LL KILL YOU
  4. If you're a QAT: try to be nice in your DQ posts at all times, that there were 2/3 BNs that agreed on the mapping style of the mapper. Give an objective reason for disqualify and explain things in a way that the mapper understands them (since many times a person who doesn't speak English fluently will be heavily discouraged because they don't understand a single word). This would be for all modes but since I'm here I'll direct it toward Taiko QATs :P

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't having posted such wall of text ever lol

*flies away*
Hmmm I'm new to modding, so i can't tell if a mod is good or not, I made about 10 mods until now, I took my time into them because i really wanted to help, and the response in total was fine. but I'm not sure if it's worth it.

I think theres a Problem with ing People who are new to this stuff, because they can't get constructive .
there should be someone that helps people to get into this kind of stuff.

The TNA don't beginners so the only thing thats left are the Guide's of Ono.
I don't think that is enough, after reading this you will stuck and dont now how to go on.

Sure everyone could try try and try. making mods, making maps, push them with stars to get them ranked, but in total you can't be sure if what you do is right or not, may thats an cause why the quality of mods is bad or more its not improving.

I would really like to have some on the things i do, but atm it's nearly impossible.
how about a thread where modders/mappers can look for ?

Hmmm i don't know if this post will help, but thats just the oppinion of someone who startet modding
I feel not qualified to mod Taiko for good reasons though.
I don't feel like I can provide reasonable to a Taiko-Diff unless it's completely bad cause I lack the grasp on what is good and what not that I have in std.
The most important thing for me when I mod std in general is this wishywashy line of RC called
notes are generally following a recognizable rhythm (such as the lyrics or drums) which is comprehensible by a player
that basically decides whether a map is good or not.
Everything else - especially in Taiko where you got no extra layer for "visual design" as in std - is just additional glitter on top of gameplay but won't make a map good as long as it still plays bad.
That's the reason why I personally see not as much value "modding Taiko" by telling the mapper to resize his background and that he has a typo in his metadata. Sure you need that kind of stuff too but you can always do that last when the gameplay of the mapset is actually good and such a mod has nothing to do with Taiko Gameplay in the first place.

Maybe it's just me but I find Taiko Mapdesign much harder to grasp than std where you have very clear layering and design-options with active and ive hitsounds, spacing etc.
Certainly also has to do with my playtime spent on the different game-modes(hence my question above) but people keeping their explanations short or giving none at all is unfortunately a very common thing in the modding community.

After all I have to agree with Estaryo on this: My current Taiko maps(if you can call them that) are mostly experimental right now and I have no intention on ranking anything yet. Most of all I want to push my understanding of Taiko mapping which is very hard if you get no specific why the stuff you're doing is bad.
And telling me to use higher HP and not the Soft Drumset is certainly good but doesn't help me at all with deg a map which is why I don't see a point in asking people who only tell me that upon asking them for further advice on my map.
Yeah, I'm pointing at you here, Raiden~

When I asked you for you didn't try to teach me anything about Taiko mapping.

2015-11-01 19:06 Raiden: I prefer people to learn by themselves
2015-11-01 19:06 Raiden: only those are worthy of BN's attention imo
I wish I didn't ask you at all in the first place because you weren't helpful early and offending later with your "FUCK STD-MAPPERS WHO TAKE THEIR TAIKO-DIFFS OUT BECAUSE THEY DONT MAN UP"-attitude. When you come from std to Taiko you have a lot to learn and the gap in mapping skill between the game modes may be very big. Yet all you do is not helping them(because they're not worth your attention) and shitstorming them when they give up upon receiving negative criticism from you that isn't particularly constructive.
You're not a good role model for what you're expecting from everyone else. More than that you're discouraging any std mapper to get into Taiko. You're making the Taiko community appear unattractive.
Your wall of text is one freaking hybris(at least you somewhat recognized it).

I didn't quite give up on mapping Taiko yet but I'll certainly never ask you again for anything related to Taiko. Rather put a "Never ask Raiden"-pic in my signature to imitate the "Never ask Irreversible"-meme.

Time to continue modding and mapping standard then. Hell, I'm even mentoring a mapping-newbie in std but oh well, such stuff isn't supposed to happen in Taiko I guess~
You reap what you sow.
SPOILER

Endaris wrote: 5o5c3i

And telling me to use higher HP and not the Soft Drumset is certainly good but doesn't help me at all with deg a map which is why I don't see a point in asking people who only tell me that upon asking them for further advice on my map.
Yeah, I'm pointing at you here, Raiden~

When I asked you for you didn't try to teach me anything about Taiko mapping.
In first place, I have no time to go around teaching every person how to map Taiko. I gave you one of the very basics you should take in to avoid multiple DQs. You should be rather thankful that I spent so much time (I even testplayed your diffs).

If you expect general advice, just go read the goddamn appropiate taiko elements for gameplay. Is it so hard?

I wish I didn't ask you at all in the first place because you weren't helpful early and offending later with your "FUCK STD-MAPPERS WHO TAKE THEIR TAIKO-DIFFS OUT BECAUSE THEY DONT MAN UP"-attitude. When you come from std to Taiko you have a lot to learn and the gap in mapping skill between the game modes may be very big. Yet all you do is not helping them(because they're not worth your attention) and shitstorming them when they give up upon receiving negative criticism from you that isn't particularly constructive.
You're just showing how ungrateful you are towards someone who, even having tons of requests and work, still gave you some of his time testplaying and giving some (even if small) advice. Very childish if you ask me.

Here you distorted my words so much, they are not mine anymore. You have literally zero idea of what happens next to me and the Taiko community because, hint hint, you aren't even a part of it. So yeah, you draw your conclusions based on mild rants in which you completely take my words out of context and make me look like the bad guy. And no, I don't have anything against standard mappers as you try to make people believe (I have plenty of Standard mappers/BN/QAT as friends).

Second, "all you do is not helping them". I have to disagree entirely. If you're willing to learn, I will lend you my help (whenever I can, that is) and the shitstorm you so call has only been directed towards people who entirely wanted a speedrank or showed a complete cynical attitude and thus removed Taiko difficulties when they can't find anyone to icon them.


You're not a good role model for what you're expecting from everyone else. More than that you're discouraging any std mapper to get into Taiko. You're making the Taiko community appear unattractive.


Disagreed. Entirely. Again, you're basing your facts in small rants of mine (totally justified by the way) and taking things out of context because you have no idea. And I doubt I make Taiko community appear unattractive. In fact, there's been quite a rise in the number of Taiko maps ranked last months (you can see in statistics). So yeah, checkmate pretty much lol.

I didn't quite give up on mapping Taiko yet but I'll certainly never ask you again for anything related to Taiko. Rather put a "Never ask Raiden"-pic in my signature to imitate the "Never ask Irreversible"-meme.
I'm glad, I rather not help someone with such attitude and our community certainly doesn't want a person like that.

You reap what you sow.
Same to you, my friend.

edit: I almost forgot!!

Start modding to help improve the situation you think is terrible, or shut up.
Want to have ? Then learn how to give it. Period.

By the way, better put it in a box, since this is very off-topic and could grant us a silence ;)
I told you repeatedly that you should just tell me if you have no interest/time to help me because I didn't want to be a bother and you appeared to be unwilling to help and didn't look like you wanted to put any energy into it. It would've been better if you told me right away to get better at Taiko first as that is what we ended up with anyway.

You're right that this is not the correct place to discuss this though.

What I wanted to get through most of all with my post is that everyone interested in the matter coming from standard can't contribute without some expertise that more experienced community could give. Otherwise any kind of "" a newb like me could give is completely random and most likely bullshit(as stated in my previous post).
My primary interest lies in how to make a map good, not rankable. In my eyes one can always make a good map rankable with some tweaks but not a technically rankable map good. This is why I didn't experience your as very useful and we most likely had a misunderstanding there. It's certainly my bad for not making that clear during our conversation. I do respect your work for the community as a Taiko-BN, it's just not very appealing to be immediately hated on when you decide to not rank your first Taiko map ever. I can see why you have a grudge against such filthy Taiko-diff-murderers but my impression was that you are not very selective regarding at who you direct it (in this specific case at me).

The issue I originally wanted to point out here - related to your post - is that I don't really see any place to come to in order to ask more specific questions about Taiko mapping. I guess I could ask them here but it's kind of suboptimal because I can't even judge what's good and what not and general questions like "when Kat and when Don?" are too general anyway to have a satisfying answer.
Pushing a Taiko mapset that is not good to Pending and make people waste their time on it with (non-in-depth) mods that I might not understand completely is garbage in of progress - my progress as a mapper and the progress of my map.
Getting into TNA would be a way to get some quality but if you have nothing to provide due to a lack of expertise just encourages shitmods as you already stated in your long post. I don't think I'm actually capable of providing anything else than shitmods right now which is why I'm searching for help to step up my level of expertise so I can actually start to give helpful input.
The average ten-year-old can't lecture someone about function theory either - he wouldn't even know what he was talking about when reading it off of a paper. The professor for mathematics can lecture it without a paper. The 18-year-old can't lecture it but at least can understand a bit of what the math-professor says.
In this situation I am like a 14-year-old who read something about math and is familiar with basic operations(=I read some of the available guides on Taiko mapping). But what now? There's not really more literature available due to whatever reasons and I'm standing in front of a problem that I can hardly solve on my own(my feeling at least) and the only person I could give some that isn't completely useless is the 10-year-old who didn't even manage to find the Taiko Mapping-Guides.

It's like the snake biting its tail. The quality of my mods will be very low and rise only slowly if there's no external input on how things work and I have to figure out everything by myself. Sure, it IS possible to get good all by myself but it's very inefficient inside a mapping community that has developed over the years which is why I'd appreciate input from experienced . There's just no place for it without doing shitmods first or assaulting poor BNs that make the mistake of appearing like nice guys in #modhelp. And I still think that you are a nice guy based on our chat. Just not the guy I should ask for during my first steps~
Topic Starter
Ah, for now I won't say a lot and rather watch what other people say. Yet, there is something I would like to mention, especially from my own experience.

While the quote from me represents pretty much what I think, I still have the same opinion like Endaris. One of the main ideas of the TNA is atm to make people start modding and getting slowly in touch with it. As someone who saw the greatest but also the worst times in Taiko (which we were stuck until a few months ago), I can say that currently with the activity of the people, we have a better one. And as I said many times before: Even old modder/mapper didn't start any different, until someone told them how they could improve their modding or until they started to have discussions about certain topics where they exchange information, opinions and ideas with other modders and mappers. That's the actual learning process in modding (beside playing or trying to map). That's one of the reasons why I give from time to time(just took latest one) some comment about a mod or discuss in #taiko about a lot of topics, so new modders are able to refine themself (but also myself! I learn a lot by talking with new people). It's also one of the reasons why I sometimes lecture people, even though they might not understand it. But maybe in the future they will. And I can only take myself as example again, as I know myself the best and experienced exactly these things:

lepidopodus wrote: 3842c

I don't like minor pattern fixes unless it sounds really weird. If you are finding a Taiko modder and you think you can make well-structured Taiko map, go back and find something else.
It took me 4 years to actually understand the deap meaning of this sentence. And even though I would explain it, new modders would need to experience it by themself before understanding it fully.

My point is, learning just by modding something isn't enough. It is important to exchange knowledge. But even then, there are by far more factors which influence the quality of a mod-post such as interest, behaviour, language or time itself. And even the history of a community can have a huge influence.
To avoid the death of this topic I'll keep posting, in quoting statements of the previous post.

I can say that currently with the activity of the people, we have a better one.
From what I have seen, all we got is a quantitative rise of modders which came along with the significant decrease of modding quality (which was the whole point in my post but I guess no one got it?). This is (I believe) caused by TNA not taking into consideration mod quality and thus encouraging half assed lazy mods: these half assed modders don't see the need to improve their quality since they are going to get in the queue anyways. This also discourages good modderss because "I'm going to get the same reward as a half assed modder, so I'll just half ass mod too".

tl;dr: we just managed to revert the factors and the saying "the order of the factors doesn't alter the product" becomes significative here

BEFORE: few modders, but mostly good ones
NOW: more modders, but less quality ones, which would be totally ok if they were newbies who still need to learn, but trust me, they have more than enough experience to do good mods and not the half assed mods they do. (A.k.a. most of the shitmodding is because of the lack of rewards mixed with a good amount of laziness)

Even old modder/mapper didn't start any different, until someone told them how they could improve their modding or until they started to have discussions about certain topics where they exchange information, opinions and ideas with other modders and mappers.
I don't anyone giving me classes on how to mod or map. I learned it by myself by looking at more experienced people's maps and mods, no matter how arrogant this might sound. No one was there to give me detailed explanations on how to map/mod. So yeah, if I (pretty average to dumb guy) can do it, basically everyone can do it.

My point is, learning just by modding something isn't enough. It is important to exchange knowledge.
I have to disagree here and use myself as an example (I explained in the point above). Maybe it was like that back then, when there were just too few pro people to learn from. But not the case right now.

As a disclaimer: no, I/we cannot force people to do good mods if they don't want to, and I do agree that shitmodding>no modding at all; but what we can do is encourage those good modders out there. And I believe it's of vast importance to keep them feeling rewarded for what they do.

I can't do much as of now (since I'm AFK) but after I'm back I'll try to think about a way to reward those good modders (because apparently Ono is not going to change how TNA behaves).

aaaaaaa come on keep posting! I need some discussion or else I'll go insane with all this text I have to study ;_;
Why does everything have to revolve back to you learning by yourself, as if exchanging knowledge or learning from someone isn't still viable now. You learnt everything by yourself, we get it, but not everyone has to go through the process of learning alone. Why get so mad at people who would like help from others, is it because no one helped you, so others shouldn't be helped? Sure there might be guides everywhere, but asking someone is more personal and could be more concise and targeted to the person than any guide out there. Why do we even have classes or tuition if we can learn everything by ourselves, just note that people work differently, and it is important to understand that difference in all of us.

You probably just asked the wrong person Endaris, but just go approach more people, and maybe observe how others mods and only if you have a question, ask the person in question why he said something as such or the other.

Chill guys
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