{"content":"\n \n \n Kodora\n <\/span>\n \n \n \n \n <\/div>\n\n \n \n \n \n \n Topic Starter\n <\/span>\n <\/div>\n \n \n Kodora<\/span>\n\n \n 2013-09-01T18:51:07+00:00<\/time>\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n D33d wrote:<\/h4>Kodora, your examples would not jibe well with a lot of people and I'd say that it extends to BATs.<\/blockquote>I was sure that we have Beatmap Appreciation Team here to judge playability of every map what pretended to be ranked, isnt it? As a modder you have rights to say your personal opinion about mapping technique what you see but we have special qualified to judge is it playable or not<\/u>. Playability discussion have no place for personal opinions. I'm just going to quote ykcarrot here:ykcarrot wrote:<\/h4>Don't slander the mapper just because it doesn't fit your taste.<\/blockquote>Well, lets talk about as minimum 2 my examples:1) Cry for Eternity<\/strong> - https:\/\/osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org\/s\/27448<\/a>I just probably will only leave link to Colin Hou's post - p\/801880<\/a> - playability confirmed by BATs2)DJ YOSHITAKA - CaptivAte Compilation<\/strong> - https:\/\/osu-ppy-sh.tvgratuite.org\/s\/29705<\/a>Dangaard wrote:<\/h4>the slow sections<\/strong> are codehacked, and as much as this works with the map<\/strong>, it's said to be unrankable and not implemented in the editor... minimum is x0.5<\/blockquote>Even if Dangaard refused to bubble due to this he confirmed that they works with map just awesome - even not going to talk about another BATs what bubbled it before and after.If you want, i can response to every your opinion and prove playability by all of them, but i'm not a qualified member. So please, just wait.<\/div>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n Kodora\n <\/span>\n \n \n \n \n <\/div>\n\n \n \n \n \n \n Topic Starter\n <\/span>\n <\/div>\n \n \n Kodora<\/span>\n\n \n 2013-09-01T20:58:42+00:00<\/time>\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n please dont remove this post since it about compromise what we all decided to keep<\/u>I did short discussion with D33d about Garven's suggestion:Garven wrote:<\/h4>Considering how infrequent this would be used, it would be better to amend the editing of osu files rule then continue this movement to allow going beyond the constriction in special cases.<\/blockquote>Wise speedchange usage requires very, very good mapping experiense, especially if mapper decided to cross current limitation. However, in specified cases it may works, and works enough intuitive and playable. Together we decided to follow Garven's suggestion about allowing editing .osz for speedchanges for specified cases. Any abusely usage can be prevented by popping\/unranking over quality reason (unreasonable SV changes usage for this case), but good usage may chance to get ranked\/approved category.<\/span>Here is chatlog<\/a>23:20 Kodora: o hi23:20 D33d: Sup.23:22 Kodora: Do you have so free time to discuss something?23:22 D33d: Depends on how much discusson's needed.23:23 Kodora: I think it would be nice to discuss theory aspects via PM (feel free to post thread if you want) instead of posting in thread23:23 Kodora: Its about new SV changes23:23 D33d: I know.23:23 D33d: I don't want to talk about it much, because I've said all that I wanted in the thread.23:23 Kodora: I understand fact that not all people agree with it.23:23 Kodora: I understand fact that not all people even like any SV manipulation23:24 D33d: I get that those things are fun to some people, but it's about compromise and not using nasty traps.23:24 Kodora: We can do a nice compromise. I discussed with Garven before about this.23:24 D33d: Yeah he'd mentioned that.23:25 D33d: I only argued my case so intensely because I've seen all of this stuff loads of times and it's never worked for me.23:25 D33d: That and I've never seen a case which couldn't have been replaced by something else.23:26 D33d: It's not between us anyway. It's between the ers and peppy, which is why all of the further discussion was deleted.23:26 Kodora: As Garven said pm to me, using any SV changes need enough well experience at mapping, and really only few mappers can do it, especially with highest one.23:26 D33d: Basically that. Discretion and limits are important.23:26 Kodora: But, it can be done well case-by-case23:27 D33d: The problem is that it becomes extremely hard to justify.23:27 Kodora: All rules have exceptions. We cant absolute anything in this universe.23:27 Kodora: Lets just do one simple compromise:23:27 D33d: Some of those examples had a nice effect, but contrasted too much and too suddenly.23:28 D33d: osu! rules can be broken in some cases, but rules are there for a reason.23:28 Kodora: It wont be implimented in editor, but will be allowed via manual editing .osz for specified cases. If any BAT member will disagree with it, it will be popped over not reasonable usage with constructive suggestions about good replacement.23:29 Kodora: Or unranked23:29 D33d: Really, anybody can do that already, right?23:29 D33d: It's only an editor limitation and, since the use cases are special, people can invoke them when they really want to.23:30 D33d: I agree with it being allowed at all if it's really effective.23:31 Kodora: Not really. Only few people know how it can be done. If people can do it in well, reasonable and playable well and playability of this usage will be confirmed by qualified member it will be added to official list of ranked maps.23:31 Kodora: Thats my idea how it will works.23:31 D33d: I thought that was always the case.23:31 D33d: Remind me if there's a rule against it.23:32 Kodora: We just going to cancel one limitation for specifical case on a legit way, nothing more.23:32 D33d: Honestly, I'm happy as long as it stays out of the editor.23:33 Kodora: In fact we really have no any rules about \"do not set speedchanges over current editor limit\" (yes it can be done without manual editing .osz)23:33 D33d: Yes, speedchanges can be made with BPM changes.23:33 Kodora: But to make it clean i think would be nice to have an official exception.23:33 Kodora: I mean not this.23:34 Kodora: Speedchanges over current limit can be done just by switching to osu!mania editor moe.23:34 D33d: Well that's still not allowed and all, but if a song actualy changes its speed, BPM can be changed like that anyway.23:34 D33d: I still thought that there was always a caveat for it.23:34 Kodora: *mode23:34 D33d: Oh okay.23:34 Kodora: I dont like any BPM manipulations honestly23:34 D33d: They tend to be bad yeah, if they're done to force something.23:36 D33d: Mappers only need to understand that extreme gimmicks are likely to be modded out.23:36 Kodora: One important thing: this discussion was started again because with new osumania editor we can avoid this rule. So, to make it clean and avoid any missunderstanding, i think would be nice to follow Garven's suggestion.23:36 D33d: I.e. it doesn't have to be a huge issue if massive changes aren't allowed by a BAT.23:37 D33d: I think that people really need to treat standard and mania as completely separate games.23:37 Kodora: Its a good compromise what already accepted several BATs.23:37 D33d: Pretty much.23:39 Kodora: If there are any BATs what will be against speedchanges usage they have all powers to pop\/unrank abusely map over this reason.23:39 Kodora: Like they exactly doing it now for other problematic maps23:39 D33d: Exactly.23:40 D33d: Keeping the case as it is now, we won't have too much abuse and people can still go out of their way if they want.23:40 D33d: Thanks for being forthcoming about it. 23:41 Kodora: So, you agree with Garven's propose?23:43 Kodora: I'll just edit first post according to it23:44 D33d: Yeah I agree.23:45 Kodora: Then nice. Thanks for discussion, i'll post log :p23:45 D33d: Sorry for getting so fired up too. I saw all of the bickering and kind of lost it.23:45 D33d: Plus, I gave all of the reasons I could, so I know that I can leave it be. 23:46 Kodora: :3<\/div><\/div>According to this, i'll change topic and first post right now.EDIT: Changed first post. Any suggestions to improve current wording are welcome.<\/div>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n \n \n <\/span>\n <\/span>\n <\/div>\n \n TheVileOne<\/a>\n\n \n osu! Alumni\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n <\/a>\n\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n \n <\/span>\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n 8,434 posts\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n\n \n ed March 2010<\/strong>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n \n \n \n TheVileOne<\/a>\n\n \n 2013-09-02T01:50:53+00:00<\/time>\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n It's multipliers, not multiplier. Change that and add these changes.<\/div>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n Modding Status: InactiveUndoing changes after testplay. Please .<\/a>Want a mod? Please leave me a PM, and if you are capable of modding I would prefer to m4m with you. I'll look at maps in any state\/length and maybe in return you could mod one of my maps, I would appreciate it! I know how to time, but I'm not an expert. <\/strong>My Maps<\/a> Mappers that inspire me:<\/strong><\/span> lesjuh, krisom, ztrot, NatsumeRinModders that inspire me:<\/strong><\/span> whymeman, blissfulyoshi, Charles445Special Mention:<\/strong> awp<\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n Kodora\n <\/span>\n \n \n \n \n <\/div>\n\n \n \n \n \n \n Topic Starter\n <\/span>\n <\/div>\n \n \n Kodora<\/span>\n\n \n 2013-09-02T11:38:55+00:00<\/time>\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n TheVileOne wrote:<\/h4>It's multipliers, not multiplier. Change that and add these changes.<\/blockquote>fixed<\/div>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n Kodora\n <\/span>\n \n \n \n \n <\/div>\n\n \n \n \n \n \n Topic Starter\n <\/span>\n <\/div>\n \n \n Kodora<\/span>\n\n \n 2013-09-02T16:36:04+00:00<\/time>\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n HakuNoKaemi wrote:<\/h4>The rule's already permitting to edit .osu to manually edit sv speeds, like this.So, let's divide the guideline in two partsone pertaining the numbers of multipliersA reasonable amount<\/strong>, generally three(excluding tiny velocity shifts made to correct the length of some sliders), of slider velocity multipliers should be used<\/strong>.(Examples: 0.5x, 1.0x and 2.0x or 0.75x, 1.00x and 1.5x, but not 1.00x, 0.98x and 1.02, since they're tiny enough to not be a real change). If slider velocity changes are able to be merged (e.g. close values like 0.8x and 0.7x) while still flowing\/working correctly, then they should be.<\/blockquote>and another pertaining the range of usable multipliersWhile you can generally use a good range of slider velocity multipliers(from 0.5x to 2.0x), you can manually edit the .osu file to obtain an unlimited range of multipliers. When using slider velocity multipliers obtained like this, try to test them with an handful of peoples with various skill levels <\/strong>(dependent on the difficulty of the map) to know if the way you used the slider velocity change played good.<\/strong><\/blockquote><\/blockquote>Sound exactly perfect, those \"dont use more than 3 SV's\" guideline was weird anyway, this correction is much more reasonable.Updated first post.<\/div>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n \n \n lolcubes<\/a>\n\n \n osu! Alumni\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n <\/a>\n\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n \n <\/span>\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n 4,437 posts\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n\n \n ed November 2010<\/strong>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n \n \n \n lolcubes<\/a>\n\n \n 2013-09-06T18:09:26+00:00<\/time>\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n I just want to give my 2c about this.The reason I believe a huge velocity change isn't necessary is because when mapping you should care about presentation. You don't have to have really big changes to make an object represent something in the music, little things can work much better, because they are subtle. That is what makes maps interesting in my opinion. Constantly changing speeds or having really drastic changes can be \"cool\" but that's all there is to it. The playability suffers (though this can be intentional).What I do agree with is that the base SV is too limited currently, and should be bigger, simply because of another issue and that is the BPM. There are songs which are very active and uplifting and yet their BPM is too low. There are songs with like 140 BPM which can easily get mapped with AR9 (and possibly with AR10, provided they are actually mapped like 280 BPM because it fits), and yet they can't get mapped properly without using a static multiplier over a base SV. This is a very rare problem, but it exists. 1\/8 can easily exist in the music.What I propose is that instead of changing a very logical rule, we just expand how multipliers work. Base SV should be able to go over 3,60 (possibly around 4.4 or maybe even 5) and the multipliers should be allowed to reach 0.25x and 2.5x. However, the usage of those should still be moderate, meaning that intentionally doubling SV and then halving it through the entire map just to get one 4x SV slider should not be allowed. This will allow any<\/em> kind of representation and I don't think you really need more. This can open enough creativity to create more different things (and things some people consider fun, I don't though) and yet it will still be in moderation. Changes don't have to be really drastic to work. We can always gradually work things out, just like some other rules have.Though, this means that this becomes a feature request instead. The rules around this are perfectly fine, however the limitations seem outdated. This is why I suggest we don't discuss the change of that rule because it really makes sense, and instead focus on expanding the limitations of the SV itself.<\/div>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n \u256d( \uff65\u3142\uff65)\u0648<\/span><\/strong><\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n \n \n <\/span>\n <\/span>\n <\/div>\n \n TheVileOne<\/a>\n\n \n osu! Alumni\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n <\/a>\n\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n \n <\/span>\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n 8,434 posts\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n\n \n ed March 2010<\/strong>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n \n \n \n TheVileOne<\/a>\n\n \n 2013-09-06T18:15:26+00:00<\/time>\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n AiMod could mention unrecommended SV changes. It would make modding it easier. The same could be applied to 1\/12th and 1\/16ths notes.<\/div>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n Modding Status: InactiveUndoing changes after testplay. Please .<\/a>Want a mod? Please leave me a PM, and if you are capable of modding I would prefer to m4m with you. I'll look at maps in any state\/length and maybe in return you could mod one of my maps, I would appreciate it! I know how to time, but I'm not an expert. <\/strong>My Maps<\/a> Mappers that inspire me:<\/strong><\/span> lesjuh, krisom, ztrot, NatsumeRinModders that inspire me:<\/strong><\/span> whymeman, blissfulyoshi, Charles445Special Mention:<\/strong> awp<\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n \n \n <\/span>\n <\/span>\n <\/span>\n <\/div>\n \n peppy<\/a>\n\n \n \n \n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n <\/span>\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n <\/span>\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n 19,323 posts\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n\n \n Here since the beginning<\/div>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n \n \n \n peppy<\/a>\n\n \n 2013-09-06T21:38:43+00:00<\/time>\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n Deleted posts which didn't contain examples or responses to examples. Hid some which were walls-of-text i would feel guilty deleting, but take that as a warning.<\/div>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n Kodora\n <\/span>\n \n \n \n \n <\/div>\n\n \n \n \n \n \n Topic Starter\n <\/span>\n <\/div>\n \n \n Kodora<\/span>\n\n \n 2013-09-07T13:59:18+00:00<\/time>\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n lolcubes wrote:<\/h4>What I propose is that instead of changing a very logical rule, we just expand how multipliers work. Base SV should be able to go over 3,60 (possibly around 4.4 or maybe even 5) and the multipliers should be allowed to reach 0.25x and 2.5x. However, the usage of those should still be moderate, meaning that intentionally doubling SV and then halving it through the entire map just to get one 4x SV slider should not be allowed. This will allow any<\/em> kind of representation and I don't think you really need more. This can open enough creativity to create more different things (and things some people consider fun, I don't though) and yet it will still be in moderation. Changes don't have to be really drastic to work. We can always gradually work things out, just like some other rules have.Though, this means that this becomes a feature request instead. The rules around this are perfectly fine, however the limitations seem outdated. This is why I suggest we don't discuss the change of that rule because it really makes sense, and instead focus on expanding the limitations of the SV itself.<\/blockquote>It actually was a feature request (to allow SV multipliers from osu! mania mode for osu standard) but moved here. I agree with your suggestion very much (however i'd discuss more SV limitation because i already linked linked map what uses x0.13 slider and its works well<\/a>, + if people can create enough playable x4 slider why should we stop them from rank?). It was reverted to rule change thread due to potential rarely usage of it and because some people was asking for unlimited SV.The practice of using this new rule should show potential new SV limitatins to create this new feature what you mentiored, but, as Garven said, changing this rule is probably onliest way to change something for now.TheVileOne wrote:<\/h4>AiMod could mention unrecommended SV changes. It would make modding it easier.<\/blockquote>Not sure about this, unrecommended SV changes isnt real problem as long as they works well (if it plays bad modders will noticed this just by testplay) and sadly some modders just blindly copy everything what AIMod\/AIBAT says.<\/div>\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n \n \n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n \n \n <\/span>\n <\/span>\n <\/div>\n \n TheVileOne<\/a>\n\n \n osu! Alumni\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n <\/a>\n\n <\/div>\n \n \n \n \n <\/span>\n <\/a>\n <\/div>\n \n 3891o